Conqistador's Works - GREEK GENERAL AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD

[Cinuz]

Good work!

[paleologos]

I like this work.
Well done Conqy!
I am particularly interested in the regular hoplite.
I'm still missing the download link.
Is there one?

[KLAssurbanipal]

The elite hoplite rework (WIP) is almost finnished, only some details to go.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Excellent hoplite
+REP

[Conqistador]

Thanks, sire!

The units weren't uploaded yet. I hope i can finnish this pack in my vacation that starts today. Will try to upload the hoplite pack and then the whole pack.

[Joar]

Nice ones!

[Conqistador]

Thanks folks. In the OP i've put the download links for the elite hoplite and for the regular hoplite, as i won't make any changes to them. The Spartan is updated with new breastplate and the shield was enhanced. Soon i'll finnish him and put the dl link for it too.

[ahowl11]

I do not know if this has been mentioned but it seems like once you finish all these units that they could replace the Greek roster? Would you do other factions? I know time is slow but imagine vanilla RTW but instead of vanilla units they were all yours!! Ha that would be awesome.. just call it Conquistador's mod lol

[Conqistador]

Haha, i thought of that many times, a long time ago, but that is nigh-impossible for me. I'm on vacations and i have a good amount of time, but m skills are so limited yet. I can't even reach the feet of masters like KLA, Ferres, Tone, Haer, etc., but i'm doing my best on this.

[Conqistador]

Well, well, i'm quite satisfied with the spartan. So i uploaded it and updated the screens in the OP. Now, the last rework is the athenian.

[paleologos]

Hello to all!

Nice work Conqistador!

I 've seen the simple Hoplite in-game and all-in-all I like it.

I only have three points of criticism, to which I hope you are open.

First, about the spear.
You need to add a butt-spike to the spear; no matter what other improvements you make this is a must for a hoplite.
They were a sophisticated type of troops after all and with nearly a millenium of trial and error evolutionary history on their backs.
If they believed they needed a butt-spike then it is a significant part of their war gear.

Second, about the sword.
They don't have one. Shame shame! Same as above.

Third, about the shield.
It is almost certainly the right size.
For those of us skinners that have followed through what I believe is due diligence, all original depictions of hoplites show that the hoplon shield features mainly two parts of different concavity;
the inner part, that is by far the largest and has a higher grade of concavity, and the outer part, which I will call "the rim" which also features a degree of concavity although it is clearly much flatter.
The upper end of the inner part is depicted (in original depictions) to be at the height of the shoulder, maybe a little higher.
The width of the rim protects the area between the shoulder and the lower lip, mainly the throat, which was almost never protected by armour.
The lower part of the shield is depicted to provide protection to the thigh only half the way between the loin and the knee.
From my point of view the due diligence debt was payed.
I like the concept of the shield rim being a seperate piece in the texture file, it makes it easier for a skinner to generate a variety of additional skin files for the same model, where it comes to the rim's decorative pattern.
I only have positive comments to make for your choice to give a full shield in the skin file as I have been much in trouble finding skin files that are correct all around.
I consider the modeller to be a digital sculptor and the skinner a digital painter.
Your work provides me with a properly sized canvas to work with.
If you have had the chance to see my skins for the Ferres thyreophoroi model you might have noticed that the shield looks like a kaleidoscope image of a single pattern,
the one thing that bothers me about that piece of work.
A whole shield on the other hand does not restrict the skinner to a strictly symmetrical pattern.
The above being typed I feel the need to let you know what I believe would be perfection, shield-wise.
The rim piece is symmetrically applied on the 3d model on a basis of a vertical axis of symmetry. This is not a problem when the rim pattern is a starburst but what about a meander?
It would not look it's absolute best methinks.
Also, a perfectly round shield in the 3d model would require a rather high number of polygons to implement making the works a GPU burden.
Roundness can be implemented much more efficiently through the skin file and specifically through the alpha channel:
even a shield that is square in the .cas file can be made to look perfectly round in-game if the radius of the cycle is not longer than the length of the square's side.
Perhaps a compromise would be in order, the above imperfections would be remedied with a continuous area for the shield and rim in the skin file.

Still, all-in-all this piece of work is better than many I've seen, +1 rep and keep it up!

[Conqistador]

I don't have the spare-time right now to answer your points, paleologos, but the problem with shields being modelled on "alpha channels" is that it doesn't allow the shield to have thickness, the shield will be a flat geometry... which i think is way worst than it being not-so rounded. Later i'll answer your points and ask you some things.

EDIT (continue): About the spear, its model is outdated, i need to redo it. About the sword, thanks for the advice, i have really forgotten them (oh my!). Now, back to the shield, i just can't preview how it will be used in combat, so i've gone with my modeller taste. The shield was modelled using an aspis picture as base, so i hope it isn't really so out of accuracy.

[paleologos]

I don't have the spare-time right now to answer your points, paleologos... ...Later i'll answer your points and ask you some things.

Criticism -particularly constructive one- is not meant to put the receiver on the defense. It is merely an opinion that critically discusses points of interest.

The shield was modelled using an aspis picture as base, so i hope it isn't really so out of accuracy.

It is not inaccurate, just thick.

I don't believe you should feel you have to justify your artistic (for the lack of a better word) choices to me or to anyone. It is your work, you are not doing it for the money, so you don't have to comply to the good old doctrine "the client is always right (or wrong, really, whatever)". It is supposed to satisfy primarily you and it is only generous of you to share it with others, some of whom may like it as it is and others may use it as a basis for improvements that satisfy their own taste.

You explicitly invite opinions by your signature and criticism is merely an opinion supported by arguments which, when it comes to forms of art, are more likely than not to be subjective.

[Conqistador]

By any means i was in defensive, i just hadn't the spare time, as i said (i've just arrived in my house near the hour i made the post). But what do you mean by just thick?

Sorry if i passed the impression of being in defensive, it wasn't the case.
Thanks for the opinions, comrade!

[paleologos]

...what do you mean by just thick?

I believe the edge of the rim of the real things was half the width of a human finger, maybe thinner.
That is IIRC what I saw in the museums.
In your model it is thicker but it is your model and it must first please your own taste.

Also, you need not say you are sorry about anything, you did not wrong me in any way.
If my opinion, as I post it, includes criticism is because I think it is more useful than just a rant of worship.
I did my best to be constructive and can only hope my best was enough.

...and ask you some things.

What did you want to ask me?

[Conqistador]

Hmm... Nothing at all. Got my answers kicked on my face. Well, i followed some of your sugestions and made from scratch an hoplite spear with spike butt and i almost finnished a sword inside an scabbard (to sign the hoplite have a sword, but really in the model he fights only with the spear). It is the revamp of the athenian hoplite, and, as before, it has the greatest number of graphical improvements, including a new phrygian helmet modelled from scratch, more accurate arm protectors, etc. I will try to finnish the works in this pack and only then apply these changes to the older models. Any ideas on how should the militia hoplite look like (as it is the next to be done)?

[paleologos]

Any ideas on how should the militia hoplite look like?

I have attached a picture for it. Of course there should be a hoplon shield. Make sure they can fight with swords as well. That would be basic hoplite.

Now, with a leather vess and boots instead of sandals (and no other metal on them) you have ekdromoi.

The model you called militia is too heavy (with bronze scales) to be medium. They would be medium without the scales, everything else ok, plus the xiphos sword. With scales they would be medium-heavy.

The heavier models would be the aristocracy of the city-state.

[Conqistador]

Militia? I haven't made any model that i called militia... By the way this "thing" in his head is an pylos helmet?

Well, well, the athenian hoplite is released in the OP.

[paleologos]

Militia? I haven't made any model that i called militia...

Mea Culpa.

In any case, the picture I posted shows what the poorest of the hoplites would look like. The garment he dons is called exomis (shoulder-out).
Spartan ekdromoi would look like this as well; ekdromoi had little to no armour and all Spartans wore the exomis.
They would be issued one exomis by the state which would be the only piece of garment they would be allowed to wear all year round, until they would be issued a new one.

In reality all hoplites before the age of petty tyrants would be citizen militias of a large variety when it came to the type and quality of their equipment.
Tyrants on the other hand would not trust their subjects with weapons but they would still need a reliable standing force, ergo state equiped mercs, ergo standardization.

In-game inevitable standardization of citizen forces or levied troops is quite ahistorical but very convenient gameplay-wise: the armchair general knows what performance to expect from each type in any situation.

[Conqistador]

Hmm... So i'll base my militia on what you said... They wore only the tunic, and nothin' more... I'll add the hoplon, scabbard and the spear, except this hat.

[paleologos]

...except this hat.

It's not a hat, it's a pilos helmet, like in your Spartan, though the pilos helmet, like the beotian helmet, the petasos and others were bronze implementations of civilian hats made of linen, felt or straw.
Check out the links:
http://www.redrampant.com/2009/07/greek-helmets.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pileus_%28hat%29
http://www.hixenbaugh.net/gallery/de...m?itemnum=4619