Sherwood Archers vs. Retinue Longbowmen

[Noozooroo]

So, since at this time I have the ability to recruit both, I'm wondering which is more effective.

Retinues have a missile attack of 8, whereas Sherwoods have one of 13. 13 is not double of 8, but Retinues have double the amount of arrows per volley. The 2HP thing doesn't really matter to me since my longbowmen seldomly get into actual fights or sustain much missile fire.

I tried doing a custom battle between the two, but you can't have two armies of the same faction fighting each other.

Another question: Do Sherwoods carry the same amount of arrows as Retinues, or the same amount of volleys? If it's only same volleys then I think Retinue would be better, but I am not certain on this, and I'd like to draw on everybody's experiences.

So. Which is better?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

They both have 30 arrows per man. Retinues have twice the number of men so can fire more arrows. The problem with Sherwoods is that it is impossible to retrain them once you are campaigning far away of their guild building. One other problem is that they wear no armor and are therefor very vulnerable to arrows. An other reason to use retinues is that they can place stakes during deployment.

And stakes my friend are

[Incomitatus]

Attack rating effectiveness isn't linear. Attack rating is used in a formula along with the relevant defence rating of the target (armour + shield if applicable) to find a chance to hit. If you're firing on units whose relevant defence rate is less than 8, you probably won't notice much difference between the two, and the Yeomen would be better choice due to volume of arrows. As the target becomes better protected, though, the gap between the two types of archers will close, and at some point the Sherwood Archers will become 'better' (better = more kills per volley). I don't know the formula (but I've seen it on here before, somewhere), so I can't tell you exactly at what point that happens or if it's cost-effective to hire the Robin Hood and co.

If you want to see what I'm talking about demonstrated, do some custom battles with lower-end archers. Compare the effectiveness of archers with 5 attack with archers that have 7 attack. The 7 attack archers are more than 20% more effective across a range of targets.

[Silverheart]

I always use Sherwood Archers when I can, but only in small quantities - and with Yeomen or Retinue Longbowmen along with them. You get the quantity of the Yeomen, with the attack quality of the Sherwoods.
I think they are superior to most other archers, because they have most of the abilities I want in my bowmen, so I like using them in my special designed campaign armies.
Their greatest problem is that it´s so hard to acquire the Woodsman guild, so training any large numbers of them is unnecessarily time-consuming.
But otherwise they´re great. England is easy to play becuse it has so many great Archers.

[melkor1861]

as silverheart said, they are best used with other longbowmen rather than alone. I like to keep one or 2 units in my army to take out heavily armored units, while my retinues focus on the lighter armored guys.

[Noozooroo]

Incomitatus and melkor1861, you both mention Retinues not having much effect against higher armored targets. But Retinues have armor piercing. Can anyone tell me exactly how this works? Like, does it only apply for units with an armor above a certain number, or only units labeled as "Heavy"? And how much is the bonus?

[Incomitatus]

The armour piercing attribute means that HALF the target's armour is ignored. So a unit with 6 armour would be treated like a unit with 3 armour for calculating the chance the unit with AP has to hit it. Please note, this only applies to ARMOUR. Shield values are still at full strength (ie. full value to the front of the target, 1/2 value to either side, and no shield to the rear).

[Noozooroo]

Hmm... ok, thanks. Based on everybody's posts, mix of Retinue and Sherwoods seems the best way to go. However, I'll probably be sticking with mostly Retinues since Woodsman's Guilds are so few and far between in my game.

[Incomitatus]

Aye. I've not played England, but I'm sure it's similar to other decent archers vs. crossbowmen. Best to have some of each.

[Ishan]

Remember that Sherwood archers are very good in melee as their secondary attack is decent enough and they have 2 hit points which counts a lot.

[melkor1861]

Remember that Sherwood archers are very good in melee as their secondary attack is decent enough and they have 2 hit points which counts a lot.

Very true. They also make great ambush units because of this

[ChivalrousKiller]

Both

Sherwood Archers have to be the coolest of them though

[MusicManiac]

Hi, I hope it's not against forum rules or something (necroposting), but I have one question: You all guys here talk that Sherwood Archers have armor penetration and they're good for attacking high-armor targets. But Retinue have armor penetration too? It says in description that they're both effective against armor, and plus I checked on wiki, they both indeed have armor penetration (http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Retinue_L...en_(M2TW_unit)) and (http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Sherwood_Archers_(M2TW_unit))

Did I misunderstood something? I mean, if they both have AP why not just use Retinue since their squad size is 60?

[Yesugatai Khan]

Quantity over quality on this case, brother. Retinue all the way, Sherwood archers are more like a support force really. They don't belong in the first line of engagement.

[ThePianist]

I am new to M2TW, though I was somewhat skilled against AI (with pause button) on RTW.
So I would like to ask:
how do you recruit Sherwood Archers and Retinue Longbowmen, at what level of castle. And is there a Reform required?

[lolIsuck]

I am new to M2TW, though I was somewhat skilled against AI (with pause button) on RTW.
So I would like to ask:
how do you recruit Sherwood Archers and Retinue Longbowmen, at what level of castle. And is there a Reform required?

Retinue Longbowmen require the marksmen range, which is the last of the archery range buildings and is only available at citadel level. The Sherwood archers require a master woodsmen guild, which is a guild so it's not buildable and has to be earned and you can only have one master woodsmen guild I think so that can be tricky. The master woodsmen guild also requires a citadel btw. There are no reforms required.

[UndrState]

Retinue Longbowmen require the marksmen range, which is the last of the archery range buildings and is only available at citadel level. The Sherwood archers require a master woodsmen guild, which is a guild so it's not buildable and has to be earned and you can only have one master woodsmen guild I think so that can be tricky. The master woodsmen guild also requires a citadel btw. There are no reforms required.

@ThePianist - To get guilds , you have to earn points towards them . With the Woodsmen's Guild , you need 100 points for the first level , plus 250 for the 2nd level . Recruiting archer units earn points for this guild , with the lowest being peasant archers @ 10 points per . So , that means you could recruit 10 peasant archers to get the first level and another 25 for the 2nd level (in the same settlement ) . But , you lose points over time , so you have to concentrate ( and fund ) building all these archers within as tight a time frame as possible . It goes faster with better archer units .

If you want to learn more about Guilds, read this guide :

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ide-for-Guilds

(skip the modding section unless that's what your there for )