There are no Atheists in foxholes?

[Nutsack]

Well look, maybe it's easier if I explain it this way. For there to have been any purpose, there has to have been time. Is that not a correct statement? If there is no time/space, then how can there be a purpose?

That is why purpose only exists within the universe, and why the universe can't possibly be defined by it.

[Phier]

Apparently in that moment you aren't...neither was the guy "few feet to the right that was praying as well". You have hit the nail in the coffin of what the metaphor "There are no Atheists in foxholes" is all about. Congratulations you win a cookie. xD

I think you missed the point.

[Enzo]

Well look, maybe it's easier if I explain it this way. For there to have been any purpose, there has to have been time. Is that not a correct statement? If there is no time/space, then how can there be a purpose?

God exists outside of space and time that's been the traditional belief for thousands of years. Something like Zeus would have existed within space and time but that's a different sort of god.

That is why purpose only exists within the universe, and why the universe can't possibly be defined by it.

To have a purpose universe would need to have been created by something with a purpose in mind which has to be external to it. Otherwise would be a very odd coincidence of some sort with all the elements and the laws of physics and everything coming together a certain way by chance.

[Zyzyfer]

I think you missed the point.

I don't think so.

[Himster]

Either the universe was created intentionally for some kind of significant reason of which we are all a part or it was kind of something that happened because it could and we're the byproducts. There isn't an alternative which is halfway between the two there's either something behind it or there isn't.

That's a false dichotomy, our ignorance is so great about the source of the universe that the possible sources are literally infinite: infinity is a larger number than 2.

[Nutsack]

To have a purpose universe would need to have been created by something with a purpose in mind which has to be external to it. Otherwise would be a very odd coincidence of some sort with all the elements and the laws of physics and everything coming together a certain way by chance.

Really? By chance? Do you honestly believe that the universe came to be by some roll of a dice or pure luck? Chance is again something that only exists within our universe, you can not say that it was created by chance. It just is.

You're absolutely killing me, you really need to believe that there is a God, don't you? And what you're doing seems to be just trying to rationalize that belief and trying to come up with reasons why the universe supposedly demands a purpose. Well, it honestly doesn't.

If you're so sure about it then I suggest you write a academic paper on it later on in life, under philosophy. State the reasons why the universe inherently demands a God or purpose and see if someone will agree with you. Nobody will.

[LestaT]

Why did this phrase start to be used in this way, and how can people still use it as an argument?

As some already explain that in certain circumstances people are crying something like 'O God', 'O my God' etc.

Just like inc certain movies or during certain interaction between a man and a woman where the actors are crying 'O God'....

Doesn't meant that they're suddenly becomes a believer. Just a word cried during pain or ecstasy for a brief period of the moment.

[Tom Cruise HAWK]

If I was hanging off a ledge I would cry my eyes out and say please god help.And I am a atheist.How many Atheists repent on their death beds just in case?Does that make me a bad Atheist.
There may be a god but the bible and Quaran god is not real.In times of desperation do we not all pray?????????????

[Simon Cashmere]

I've faced death before, it didn't make me want to praise Jesus.

[Enzo]

Really? By chance? Do you honestly believe that the universe came to be by some roll of a dice or pure luck? Chance is again something that only exists within our universe, you can not say that it was created by chance. It just is.

Being "just is" is what I mean, it would be chance that we're here at all, an unlikely one at that trillions to one. If God exists then while some the details may be left to chance what you have is a deliberate creation. So those are two general world views you can have, chance or design.

You're absolutely killing me, you really need to believe that there is a God, don't you? And what you're doing seems to be just trying to rationalize that belief and trying to come up with reasons why the universe supposedly demands a purpose. Well, it honestly doesn't.

The universe either the way it it is because it was intentionally designed or it kind of just came together this way because it did. It could have been something else entirely different without life biut it just happened to be this, pure chance combination. So again its either chance or design, naturalism or supernaturalism, one or the other. There isn't some kind of half and half option for you. Whichever one you choose will be a belief not based on evidence of any kind.

If you're so sure about it then I suggest you write a academic paper on it later on in life, under philosophy. State the reasons why the universe inherently demands a God or purpose and see if someone will agree with you. Nobody will.

Because belief in God instead a chance coincidence universe is a very rare and unusual sort of thing that no-one would agree with? I don't think you have the right idea. Nothing I'm saying is new I'm just telling what options are and what they would mean if true. If you want to believe Naturalism is true that's fine though to me it seems unlikely as to me its seems obvious that there was some kind of very precise design involved which is full of various mathematical patterns, structures and symeteries, from the microscopic to the immense. Even without the Bible I would see this anyway.

[Valden]

Well look, maybe it's easier if I explain it this way. For there to have been any purpose, there has to have been time. Is that not a correct statement? If there is no time/space, then how can there be a purpose?

That is why purpose only exists within the universe, and why the universe can't possibly be defined by it.

Why are you arbitrarily excluding the universe from required an explanation? It seems to me that you are dismissing your own logic when you fear it might lead you to God.

[Mangalore]

Those 11+ dimensions came from somewhere as well if they're part of the natural order of the laws of physics. The thing about laws is that someone has to make them they don't just happen.

No. This is an inverse application of the human definition of law. In physics law simply mean something follows Math. The only one creating it is us. As it is most laws seem to be the way they are because those are the parameters this universe has. How these parameters came to be however is unknown. In a multiverse of billions of universe expanding, colliding and collapsing we get back to chance and a new marcocosmos of weird stuff going on without any intelligence driving it.

The reason for that could be that there has to be some degree of chance and uncertainity for evolution and free will to operate. So even the apparent chaos would be part of the order.

"could". Anything more substantial to back that up?

God isn't an intelligence as we know it it would vastly beyond our limited conception and it isn't some we will ever discover through science. Someone like Moses may have had some much greater degree of comprehension of God but even he could only see Gods back.

Me saying we are lightyears of facts, investigation and research away from coming to a conclusion that some super intelligence might be involved doesn't allow you to declare this very conclusion without any facts, investigation or research to debunk my statement.

You jump to the end of the thought train without even following any tracks here!

[Valden]

No. This is an inverse application of the human definition of law. In physics law simply mean something follows Math. The only one creating it is us. As it is most laws seem to be the way they are because those are the parameters this universe has. How these parameters came to be however is unknown. In a multiverse of billions of universe expanding, colliding and collapsing we get back to chance and a new marcocosmos of weird stuff going on without any intelligence driving it.

I think before you accuse Enzo of getting ahead of himself, you need to give us proper justification to believe that the multiverse scenario really is the case, because when I last checked it was just an interesting speculation that requires several huge assumptions, such as assuming there are eleven dimensions.

Given what we know of the universe, it seems more plausibly true that a multiverse scenario certainly isn't the case.

[Mangalore]

I think before you accuse Enzo of getting ahead of himself, you need to give us proper justification to believe that the multiverse scenario really is the case, because when I last checked it was just an interesting speculation that requires several huge assumptions, such as assuming there are eleven dimensions.

Given what we know of the universe, it seems more plausibly true that a multiverse scenario certainly isn't the case.

No, it's actually irrelevant. It is just one scenario which would completely negate even the assumption of predermined parameters for a universe like ours. Even without it where the parameters of our universe came from is unknown. Unless we define Unknown as God, it however does not point to God either.

[Phier]

I've faced death before, it didn't make me want to praise Jesus.

I was too busy saving my life to pray myself when I did myself come to think of it.

I think this though is part of the foxhole issue. You have NOTHING to do in a foxhole but hope that a high explosive doesn't land on your head. Its the helplessness and lack of anything to do that turns the mind to magic.

[Nutsack]

No I'm not dismissing my own logic but you are. Enzo said that the universe is something perhaps like a one in a trillion chance occurance if there was no God. Well, how can you say that, when in fact numbers is a byproduct of the universe itself?

I think I'm being struck by a lot of dumbpiphany right now as in Phiers signature describes it to be. You guys are making something extremely simple and straightforward into something extremely complicated in thought just because you want to believe in something..

[Angrychris]

proves you'll believe in anything when there's guns pointed at you.

[Adar]

If I was hanging off a ledge I would cry my eyes out and say please god help.And I am a atheist.How many Atheists repent on their death beds just in case?Does that make me a bad Atheist.
There may be a god but the bible and Quaran god is not real.In times of desperation do we not all pray?????????????

Seems like a terrible choice. What if the God(s) judge you based on good deeds unless your a heretic?

Doesn't make much sense to settle for a specific god on your deathbed when it mean that you greatly restrict the number of divine alternatives that won't send you to hell.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Reason, or a purpose, is something that is native to our universe as it is now. The universe can't have been made for a reason, because reason only exists within it. It's like asking which came first? The egg or the chicken? Well, in this case, the egg.

This is the kind of gibberish a missionary would use to impress peasants. Would fit well in a Monty Python scetch, IMO. The art of speaking a lot without telling anything.

[basics]

" Enzo said that the universe is something perhaps like a one in a trillion chance occurance if there was no God. Well, how can you say that, when in fact numbers is a byproduct of the universe itself?"

Nutsack,

Then he is wrong by a margin of trillions because mathematically after one chance to the power of 50 according to Borel nothing is possible by chance and the calculation for our existence by chance is one chance in 100 trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion according to Rodabaugh. This is what Hoyle said, " The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with forty-thousand noughts after it. It is enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There is no primevil soup, neither on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence."

It may be that the brave boys on this thread don't fear death but it is also possible that they have never met death face to face. Most who have in civilian life come across it by accident, mostly instantaeously, and so don't have much time to think at all. The military on the other hand know that death is never far away if service is active, meaning they do have much time to think about it and so doubts and fear step in. That is when thoughts turn to prayer or prayer mat or whatever gives comfort. Swarszkopf was not speaking off the top of his head when he made that remark.

I mean just look at history and think of the speeches made by commanders before any great battle. For what purpose were they made? Primarily to bolster the fears that their men had regardless of their religious zeal or none at all. In some cases it is known that booze and drugs eased those fears and not so far back that it has been lost to memory. When man runs out of his own ability to appease his own fears it is natural that he would seek the supernatural and the general witnessed that on so many occasions, else he wouldn't have commented on it.

No my friend, they certainly don't delve into the aspects of evolution verses creation in those moments why? Because there is not one who wants to die unless stoked up into a frenzy as is our experience of the terrorist. As a Christian I don't want to die. I want to live and that is my comfort because that is what my regeneration is all about. It is about taking the fear of death out of my own equation knowing that I won't. If I have any fears these are the things left undone whilst here and have I done enough to satisfy my Creator when I have to stand before Him.

It is written that man fears death and if anyone should know that and why it surely is the God to whom they all seem to turn when faced with its possibilities. Oh, the brave on this thread can spout all they like but God knows them through and through. In no time at all every knee shall bow to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and you know what, not one can stop it happening.