Multiverses are a likely consequence if the universe can come into existence naturally.
Still waiting for an example of a natural phenomenon which has only occurred the once, by the way.
Physicalism is a profound belief in its own right if you're serious about really getting "that sort of thing". It has been done before in ancient times and it even gained some amount of popularity. It was originally formulated as a means in which to avoid the fear of death and achieve what would in effect be an eternal happiness in your physical life without the fear of punishment in the next.
Though it has to be said I'm not sure how well they would have held that given the context of modern day science and a Christian God of forgiveness of sin through grace rather than the capricious Greek gods. They may have believed very differently if they had that grade of material on their hands.
You take fine tuned and imagine some maestro at the piano. Thing is, there are alot of equally valid ideas that won't need one. We have plenty of self tuning processes so there is no reason to assume this is not possible and hence not as valid as the claim of a fine tuner.
Have you checked the kind of Math we need to explain the universe? This stuff didn't come up lightly, this stuff took milennia to be developed and approximately 1.602176565(35)×10−19 coulombs for the base positive elementary charge is not an accessible number which is why physicists call it e and use a bunch of other shorthands instead of writing this stuff out!As for mathematics, don't you think it is one hell of a coincidence that a logical system human beings conceived in the abstract can be found demonstrated in every level of existence, down to the most intricate structures of the atom? All our science presupposes the truth of mathematics, yet its explanation is inherently metaphysical: Mathematics exists in the mind of the Designer, and was used by Him to create the universe, so we, as lesser minds can comprehend his creation.
You use reverse causality explaining something exist. We invented math to better approximate reality, it doesn't magically fit. Otherwise these formulas wouldn't be the so freaky if they don't boil it down for us dummies. I mean behind the popular E=mc² there is a whole wall of formulas to actually use it.
So you like the half a dozen other, equally wacky alternatives theoretical physcists are playing with better? Because they leave little wiggle room for God either. The Multiverse scenario is only attractive since it is the inevitable outcome of various of the proposed mathematical modelsWe should care because they probably are not true, but atheists frequently imply they are to try and avoid God. As Bill Craig said, why do you think so many seemingly sober scientists cling to such a fantastical theory?
Because this is the only methodology that digs up stuff it can share with people? Provide a functioning alternative methodology. Then we can use that but the claim this methodology doesn't prove the supernatural is not proof that it cannot prove it. Provide evidence why it should not be able to prove the supernatural while claiming said supernatural actually exists!Why do you assume that an intellectual methodology designed to gather natural facts is equipped to deal with the supernatural? You're trying to force a square into a triangle shaped hole, then claiming triangles don't exist when it doesn't fit.
Otherwise you make a simple cop out in making a sweeping claim about said methodology without evidence.
That finding God in our minds is actually a scientific approach vs parapsychology which is not.I equally see atheism in psychology, we are all to an extent the result of sociobiological conditioning, but what is your point?
"Sebaceans once had a god called Djancaz-Bru. Six worlds prayed to her. They built her temples, conquered planets. And yet one day she rose up and destroyed all six worlds. And when the last warrior was dying, he said, 'We gave you everything, why did you destroy us?' And she looked down upon him and she whispered, 'Because I can.' "
Well, this is an odd straw-man. It has nothing to do with what I was sayingNaturalism/physicalism is possible but then so is Mormonism its just a belief you can have that science doesn't and couldn't ever cover as it is limited to what we can observe within the natural world which is our universe. If we find that say the laws of physics extend beyond the Big Bang then whatever that would be would also be our universe and would still require an explanation which can only be found outside the universe. Its easier to assume that the Big Bang was the equivalent of a Biblical intentional creation event of some kind.
"Biblical explanations"? So it was all done in 7 days?By natural you'll mean coincidental random non-designed chance of some kind. With God you don't have to resort to anything like that as everything would have a proper explanation, its the Biblical explanation that's all you need. Science will cover the details of what God set within his creation. There will be other creations but we're limited to one for now. You'll get to experience the other parts of creation when you die. Something to look forward to, you may not even have very long to wait.
A multiverse is not a resort, it is a consequence. It is irrelevant to Occam's Razor (which is what you appear to be appealing to).
It was not a unique phenomenon, just a unique circumstance. Births happen all the time. Try again.Your birth would be one.
Last edited by Enzo; September 25, 2012 at 05:02 PM.
The universe isn't some spectacular occurence of perfect design. Get over it, the universe sucks and I can think of a million possible universes that would be better than the one we currently live in.
First off - A universe without evil, pain or negativity (and who are you to say that's not possible? You're the one who is claiming there is a God, so is it really that bizarre to think about a universe without these three things? No).
Secondly - A universe without Enzo (and who are you to say that's not possible? I actually think it would be a pretty nice universe to live in).
Third - A paradise (makes our universe look kind of bad, doesn't it?).
All of these examples show that yours and my universe sucks dicks. So if you want to believe in intelligent design, then go ahead! By all means! All that I'm saying is that I don't think the design was particularly intelligent, or well thought out, for a God to have created it at least. I'm pretty sure he ed up in that case.
"Intelligent design", what a load of bullcrap. There is nothing intelligent about the universe. It's a dark ing place and we're stuck on a rock in the middle of nowhere, a rock which we are actually completely trapped on. And we are also poisoning our own air supply with carbon dioxide, so if you want to call that an intelligent design then go ahead, because in that case I think it's the biggest ing failure ever made.
Last edited by Nutsack; September 25, 2012 at 05:37 PM.
Yea, the universe sucks, Nutsack is right. If it's intelligently designed, then it was designed by an idiot or a sociopath.
Originally Posted by Yoda
The thing to bear in mind is as you know you're not going to enjoy your life. Not all of it anyway you may have few really enjoyable years here and there if you're lucky. What you need is the bigger picture.
Last edited by Enzo; September 26, 2012 at 03:53 AM.
see this thread has gone way off topic.
Closed for possible clean up
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