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Thread: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD **QUOTES NEEDED**

  1. #401
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD - GREECE AND NETHERLANDS ADDED

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyudet View Post
    Yes - the British used some when attacking Gaza in 1917

    That you, very handy for LOA.

  2. #402
    B-DizL's Avatar TGW Lead Modeller
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Research Request

    Could you guys find some pics of trench knives for various nations?

  3. #403

    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    These are bayonets and Fighting Knives of The Western Front. I couldn't find any for Italy.

    US
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Great Britain
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    France
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Germany
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    That is the flaw in your theory, gentlemen and I will not help you out of it. If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action. -Hank Rearden

  4. #404
    The Vengur's Avatar Bloodthirsty Lunatic
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by B-DizL View Post
    Research Request

    Could you guys find some pics of trench knives for various nations?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by B-DizL; November 01, 2011 at 08:23 PM. Reason: put spoilers on pic
    Quote Originally Posted by trance View Post
    I might have inherited the stature and alcohol consumption of our ancestors, but Vengur got the ruthless, psychopathic bloodlust.
    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    New rule: -one player each session will be designated the "Vengur Handler". It is like a dog handler in real life but you have to also pay attention to where his weapon is pointed at all times, make sure he does not have access to a parachute while in a chopper, keep him from running into buildings which the rest of the squad is currently suppressing, etc. An AGM/ACE compatible leash has been added to VAS.

  5. #405
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Awesome guys + reps

  6. #406
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Trench knifes.. didn't the soldiers from both sides agreed the used the shovels ?
    Not sure about that but i'm sure shovels where more used then the knifes.

  7. #407
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    They basically used whatever they could get ahold of, they also custom made trench clubs that were pretty brutal.

    Heres a few of them at the bottom...


  8. #408
    panzer 4's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Ottoman Bayonets
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    now i dont speak turkish, but the number on the bayonet in arabic would be 1325
    actually wait, no i know what it is, it is the Islamic Year of Make, 1325 A.H

    if it was arabic, it would say Faiz Baqari... not sure what/who that is
    Last edited by panzer 4; November 02, 2011 at 08:51 AM.
    The US will gladly step up to become the world police when there is oil involved, yet they will resign the second there is a genocide in Africa, a slaughter in an allied nation, or a massacre committed by dictators, all who's nations have nothing to offer, but the gratitude of the people to the international community for reaching out.

  9. #409
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Is it possible that some soldiers have let say a sword an other a bayonet and one other a shovel ? then you create some diversity.

  10. #410
    panzer 4's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    funny thing is, if the Nizam Reforms didnt take place in 1826, the ottomans would not have used bayonets.
    The US will gladly step up to become the world police when there is oil involved, yet they will resign the second there is a genocide in Africa, a slaughter in an allied nation, or a massacre committed by dictators, all who's nations have nothing to offer, but the gratitude of the people to the international community for reaching out.

  11. #411
    General Brewster's Avatar The Flying Dutchman
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    I need to ask where the hell are you from ? Guess immigrated cause you english seems fine and that isn't the case for many middle eastern people, i would guess you're in the mid 30 cause you know more then the average teenager or 20 year old though you are studding what would conclude my final judgment to around 23-35.
    Also i can conclude it cause in you're stories when talking of you're father i can conclude that or he is dead or "very" old by now.

    And you're not from Turkey cause you cant speak Turkish. Well Israel it's certainly not. Syria could be but with the current tentions there i thought the internet was restricted. Well in Libya you would be busy fighting, Tunisia i really doubt. leaving Marokko, though again thats not a former ottoman state so that isn't you're homeland. My best guess at the moment is A you're immigrated or B you come from Yemen or United Arab Emirates.

  12. #412

    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    I need to ask where the hell are you from ? Guess immigrated cause you english seems fine and that isn't the case for many middle eastern people, i would guess you're in the mid 30 cause you know more then the average teenager or 20 year old though you are studding what would conclude my final judgment to around 23-35.
    Also i can conclude it cause in you're stories when talking of you're father i can conclude that or he is dead or "very" old by now.

    And you're not from Turkey cause you cant speak Turkish. Well Israel it's certainly not. Syria could be but with the current tentions there i thought the internet was restricted. Well in Libya you would be busy fighting, Tunisia i really doubt. leaving Marokko, though again thats not a former ottoman state so that isn't you're homeland. My best guess at the moment is A you're immigrated or B you come from Yemen or United Arab Emirates.
    My money is on somewhere in the US.
    That is the flaw in your theory, gentlemen and I will not help you out of it. If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action. -Hank Rearden

  13. #413
    panzer 4's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brewster View Post
    I need to ask where the hell are you from ? Guess immigrated cause you english seems fine and that isn't the case for many middle eastern people, i would guess you're in the mid 30 cause you know more then the average teenager or 20 year old though you are studding what would conclude my final judgment to around 23-35.
    Also i can conclude it cause in you're stories when talking of you're father i can conclude that or he is dead or "very" old by now.

    And you're not from Turkey cause you cant speak Turkish. Well Israel it's certainly not. Syria could be but with the current tentions there i thought the internet was restricted. Well in Libya you would be busy fighting, Tunisia i really doubt. leaving Marokko, though again thats not a former ottoman state so that isn't you're homeland. My best guess at the moment is A you're immigrated or B you come from Yemen or United Arab Emirates.
    yep, you got me, i am currently living in iraq and i crucify all infidels as part of my Jund'Allah training and plant IED's on dogs that run under american tanks to pop them open. i also have the intention of exporting Communism to all foreign countries and have no remorse at killing civilians as they died while getting in the greater good's cause

    (PS. not my father, its my Great Grandfather )
    The US will gladly step up to become the world police when there is oil involved, yet they will resign the second there is a genocide in Africa, a slaughter in an allied nation, or a massacre committed by dictators, all who's nations have nothing to offer, but the gratitude of the people to the international community for reaching out.

  14. #414

    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by B-DizL View Post
    Research Request

    Could you guys find some pics of trench knives for various nations?
    Interesting that’d you ask about that. I did that research for the Verdun Online project a few years ago.
    You want to know specifically about trench knives and daggers right, not bayonets, clubs, knobkerries, machetes, shovels, etc..?

    Here’s a breakdown of trench daggers and knives used in the Great War. Some countries are missing, but that’s because I don’t have reliable information about them and don’t want to make things up.


    Austria-Hungary

    Carrying daggers became a widespread practice amongst all branches of the armies. You can see the model shown here on a number of period photographs of Austro-Hungarian soldiers.
    Artillerymen and sappers were also issued with a gladius. The model shown here has 1916 markings.

    Spoiler for bigger picture




    Belgium

    This dagger was produced under contract in England for the Belgian armed forces (since most of Belgium was occupied at the time). The Belgian dagger became the prototype for the British commando daggers of WW2.




    British Empire and United Kingdom

    The British Army had no standard trench knife model during the war. Clubs seem to have been much more favoured as melee weapons. A number of commercially-made daggers were bought and issued to soldiers or privately purchased.

    Push Daggers were privately purchased by officers and soldiers.


    Here’s a trench dagger converted from an obsolete Lee-Metford bayonet


    Rather than a dagger, here’s a widespread and typically English tool (although I don’t know if it was actually used in combat): the billhook.




    Dutch

    I have no information on this dagger. It was posted by another collector, so I can’t even vouch for its authenticity.




    France

    Due to its size, the French Army introduced a wide variety of official models. Daggers and trench knives became associated with the groupes francs (independent raider groups) and the nettoyeurs de tranchées (lit. “trench cleaners”, groups of volunteers in charge of “cleaning” a trench network after an assault).

    Model 1916 Dagger-knife “Le Vengeur”: this initially commercial model replaced earlier improvised designs from 1916 on. It has become the iconic design of WW1 French trench daggers. The shape of the blade was reused by the US army to design their 1918 trench knives (yes, it’s spelled “vengeur” with the letters in that specific order).
    Model 1884/14 Bayonet-dagger, or more simply Coutrot No. 1, 2, 6, 7 and 8: those were made from converted Lebel bayonets. The various types were made at the same time, but from different parts of the bayonet’s blade (hence the numbers).
    "Butcher knife": so-called due to its obvious shape. Another widespread model.
    Skeleton dagger: the model used in combat was 34cm long. A smaller model called "Serpent dagger" was used ceremonially.
    Nail dagger, or more infamously “French Nail”: this was an early official model made by regimental tinsmiths from the metal stakes used to hold barbed wire. It was 33cm long in total.
    1833 Navy dagger: it was issued to Fusiliers Marins. Boarding and trench raiding parties must have had something in common.
    Spoiler for pictures of the daggers




    Neither a knife nor a dagger, but I just had to include this.
    Coupe-coupe: this machete was issued at platoon level in the French army, except for Senegalese tirailleurs who were all individually issued with one. Obviously it became associated with them.
    Spoiler for machete




    German Empire

    At the beginning of the war most soldiers, especially from rural and mountain regions, took their civilian hunting knives with them.
    During the war a number of commercial or semi-official models were used.

    Demag dagger-bayonet: an iconic model (very sought-out by collectors), and more representative of Stormtroop battalions. As its name implies it could be used both as a trench dagger and a bayonet.
    Nahkampfmesser or Grabendolch: it was made by a wide range of manufacturers and is probably the most commonly used German trench dagger of the war. There is a wide range of variations.
    Hunting knives: as mentioned above those were civilian models used by hunters and gamekeepers in Germany. This category covers a rather wide range of models, but generally some distinctive shapes can be recognised.
    Spoiler for enough bla-bla, more stabbity stab




    Italy

    Trench daggers became associated with Arditi in the Italian army, so much so that they included it on their badge.
    Carrying captured Austro-Hungarian daggers also became a fashionable trend amongst Italian soldiers and officers during the war.




    Romania

    This model was made in France and supplied to the Romanian Army.




    United States

    M1917 “knuckle duster” trench knife: 35cm long, 36cm for the second type. It was made by three different manufacturers in the US. It’s an official model.



    M1918 trench knife
    : initially a French contract, it was supplied too late to see combat in WW1, but saw service in WW2.



    M1909 and M1910 bolo
    , and USMC model: more a machete than a knife, this tool was issued at a rate of one per squad.
    Spoiler for bolo pictures





    Quote Originally Posted by B-DizL View Post
    They basically used whatever they could get ahold of, they also custom made trench clubs that were pretty brutal.

    Heres a few of them at the bottom...
    [image cropped]
    Erm.. no.. None of those are clubs.
    Those are all stick grenades and "petard-raquette", improvised grenades made from explosives attached to a plank.
    Last edited by don_Durandal; November 02, 2011 at 08:48 AM. Reason: reply

  15. #415
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by panzer 4 View Post
    yep, you got me, i am currently living in iraq and i crucify all infidels as part of my Jund'Allah training and plant IED's on dogs that run under american tanks to pop them open. i also have the intention of exporting Communism to all foreign countries and have no remorse at killing civilians as they died while getting in the greater good's cause

    (PS. not my father, its my Great Grandfather )
    Damn i'm good lol.i was just curios. Maybe i saw you once while i was there lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by don_Durandal View Post
    Interesting that’d you ask about that. I did that research for the Verdun Online project a few years ago.
    You want to know specifically about trench knives and daggers right, not bayonets, clubs, knobkerries, machetes, shovels, etc..?

    Here’s a breakdown of trench daggers and knives used in the Great War. Some countries are missing, but that’s because I don’t have reliable information about them and don’t want to make things up.


    Austria-Hungary

    Carrying daggers became a widespread practice amongst all branches of the armies. You can see the model shown here on a number of period photographs of Austro-Hungarian soldiers.
    Artillerymen and sappers were also issued with a gladius. The model shown here has 1916 markings.

    Spoiler for bigger picture




    Belgium

    This dagger was produced under contract in England for the Belgian armed forces (since most of Belgium was occupied at the time). The Belgian dagger became the prototype for the British commando daggers of WW2.




    British Empire and United Kingdom

    The British Army had no standard trench knife model during the war. Clubs seem to have been much more favoured as melee weapons. A number of commercially-made daggers were bought and issued to soldiers or privately purchased.

    Push Daggers were privately purchased by officers and soldiers.


    Here’s a trench dagger converted from an obsolete Lee-Metford bayonet


    Rather than a dagger, here’s a widespread and typically English tool (although I don’t know if it was actually used in combat): the billhook.




    Dutch

    I have no information on this dagger. It was posted by another collector, so I can’t even vouch for its authenticity.




    France

    Due to its size, the French Army introduced a wide variety of official models. Daggers and trench knives became associated with the groupes francs (independent raider groups) and the nettoyeurs de tranchées (lit. “trench cleaners”, groups of volunteers in charge of “cleaning” a trench network after an assault).

    Model 1916 Dagger-knife “Le Vengeur”: this initially commercial model replaced earlier improvised designs from 1916 on. It has become the iconic design of WW1 French trench daggers. The shape of the blade was reused by the US army to design their 1918 trench knives (yes, it’s spelled “vengeur” with the letters in that specific order).
    Model 1884/14 Bayonet-dagger, or more simply Coutrot No. 1, 2, 6, 7 and 8: those were made from converted Lebel bayonets. The various types were made at the same time, but from different parts of the bayonet’s blade (hence the numbers).
    "Butcher knife": so-called due to its obvious shape. Another widespread model.
    Skeleton dagger: the model used in combat was 34cm long. A smaller model called "Serpent dagger" was used ceremonially.
    Nail dagger, or more infamously “French Nail”: this was an early official model made by regimental tinsmiths from the metal stakes used to hold barbed wire. It was 33cm long in total.
    1833 Navy dagger: it was issued to Fusiliers Marins. Boarding and trench raiding parties must have had something in common.
    Spoiler for pictures of the daggers




    Neither a knife nor a dagger, but I just had to include this.
    Coupe-coupe: this machete was issued at platoon level in the French army, except for Senegalese tirailleurs who were all individually issued with one. Obviously it became associated with them.
    Spoiler for machete




    German Empire

    At the beginning of the war most soldiers, especially from rural and mountain regions, took their civilian hunting knives with them.
    During the war a number of commercial or semi-official models were used.

    Demag dagger-bayonet: an iconic model (very sought-out by collectors), and more representative of Stormtroop battalions. As its name implies it could be used both as a trench dagger and a bayonet.
    Nahkampfmesser or Grabendolch: it was made by a wide range of manufacturers and is probably the most commonly used German trench dagger of the war. There is a wide range of variations.
    Hunting knives: as mentioned above those were civilian models used by hunters and gamekeepers in Germany. This category covers a rather wide range of models, but generally some distinctive shapes can be recognised.
    Spoiler for enough bla-bla, more stabbity stab




    Italy

    Trench daggers became associated with Arditi in the Italian army, so much so that they included it on their badge.
    Carrying captured Austro-Hungarian daggers also became a fashionable trend amongst Italian soldiers and officers during the war.




    Romania

    This model was made in France and supplied to the Romanian Army.




    United States

    M1917 “knuckle duster” trench knife: 35cm long, 36cm for the second type. It was made by three different manufacturers in the US. It’s an official model.



    M1918 trench knife
    : initially a French contract, it was supplied too late to see combat in WW1, but saw service in WW2.



    M1909 and M1910 bolo
    , and USMC model: more a machete than a knife, this tool was issued at a rate of one per squad.
    Spoiler for bolo pictures






    Erm.. no.. None of those are clubs.
    Those are all stick grenades and "petard-raquette", improvised grenades made from explosives attached to a plank.
    About the Dutch one only our storm troopers used bayonets.

  16. #416

    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    British ones tended to be broken bayonets that were shortened. Or sometimes just left broken (nastier that way). The preference for clubs (most of which resembled rounders bats with various additions) stems from one of the main functions of trench raids: intelligence gathering through the capture of prisoners. A knife to the abdomen tends to not to be conducive to the taken of live prisoners. That said, many trench clubs were a tad unpleasant - barbed wire wrapped around them, nails driven through them, hobnail smacked into them, etc., all the sorts of things required to remove a boches face...

  17. #417
    B-DizL's Avatar TGW Lead Modeller
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    @ don_Durandal

    Very nice thanks + rep

  18. #418
    B-DizL's Avatar TGW Lead Modeller
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Deleted posts, guys talk about this stuff on your profiles not on our threads.

  19. #419
    B-DizL's Avatar TGW Lead Modeller
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    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    REQUEST:

    I need some pics of German and British sniper scopes.

    For British i need the one used with the Lee Enfield and for the Germans the one for the Mauser.

  20. #420

    Default Re: WW1 RESEARCH THREAD

    Here's the standard British one, manufactured by the Periscopic Prism Co. About half those produced in 1916 were of this type. Prior to that, it was a case of "whatever" - sporting Ross's were commonly used for the purpose. By 1918, the standardised British sniper rifle was based on the P14 - as such, this is your best bet


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