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Thread: Irish and Scottish Culture

  1. #1

    Default Irish and Scottish Culture

    Can some one tell me why the Irish and Scottish factions in this mod to be, aren't listed within the same culture? Considering the Dal Riada of Scotland who produced the first line of Kings in Scotland were culturally Irish because they were originally from Ulster.

    Secondly, what's the Welsh-Scottish connection? And why are they the same culture?

    Here's how I'd break it down. In a broad cultural sense they are all three Celtic. However linguistically, Ireland and Scotland are Gaelic (or Goidelic) and Wales is Brythonic.

    In a specific cultural sense, Ireland and Scotland are culturally similar, whereas the Welsh are contrasted against the other two.

    In short, if you are going to divide the Celtic nations on cultural lines, Wales should be isolated, instead of Ireland. But personally I think they should be all put in the same Celtic cultural grouping simply on the grounds that they all spoke Celtic languages at the time. Additionally, all three adhered to Celtic Christianity at the time.

    It would be nice to see this addressed.

  2. #2
    MagUidir's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    hey, your prolly not going to get much love for this topic being that danova answered it the last time you posted it in the proposals... i can understand ur frustration but this ths TLK teams mod and they wanted to probably figured that the irish culture an the scottish were deffierent enough to be seperate. That being said i also understand that welsh and scottish are way different cultually as well as geographically. But they have said that this is not a entirely historicaly accurate mod. be flexible bro-sama. its all gonna be fine because different troop trees and different buildings. Plus they needed at least 2 factions for a culture probably... imean 2 irish, 2 brythonic/scot/welsh, <---(whatever) and then your saxon and viking cultures... it was prolly just easier this way. and as long as i get to play this mod in all its awesomeness i can look over a few minor discrepensies! Danova and team keep up the Great work!!!! we are rootin for ya!!!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    It is wise not to anger the mighty DaNova...

  4. #4
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    Well, in terms of this mod/game 'Culture' is but a mere word and title to help the dev's ( and probably us ) in the playing and making of the mod, mate. Nothing more.

    Also, the first Kings of Alba were not origonally from Ulster, they were raised in Ireland. Cínaed Mac Ailpin's nephew and son were sent to Ireland by Cínaed's warlord after his death. The connection between Ireland and Scotland now-a-days is apparant, back then it was still obviouse to see. The Gealization of the Picts was a large stage in British history, turning the Picts from a Brythonic speaking peoples to a Gealic one. The Geals and Norse-Geals brought much to Scotland making what it is now a Celtic country with Gealic (Scottish, Pronounced Ga-lic, Irish is pronounced Gay-lic) still being spoken in the Highlands.

    Do not think too much into the term 'Culture' in this game mate, it'll only lead to annoyance and confusion on your behalf. As MagUidr said, and the Dev Team said YONKS ago in another Post/Thread, it's only a word to help define whilst they develop and make the mod, completely set aside from the actual rl cultures of the said nations,

    A few facts about Scotland - Bagpipes are not Scottish, they are Persian
    - Tartan is worn by the Welsh and Irish also
    - 'Kilt' is a Danish, or Norse word
    - Whiskey is origonally Mesopemian (modern Iraq)
    - William Wallace was part Welsh, English and French and really rather posh
    - Jacobites did not fight for freedom, but fought for the rightful then King of the UK



    Proud to be a -> REAL <- Scot.
    Last edited by Celtichugs123; September 15, 2011 at 10:24 AM.
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  5. #5

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtichugs123 View Post
    - 'Kilt' is a Danish, or Norse word
    Well, considering kilts weren't worn until the 1500's, I'm not sure how relevant it is to this mod in particular.

    But, good points on how cultures in game are primarily a tool of the game engine, and should not be thought of as trying to seriously portray cultural differences so much as a parameter for the game engine.

    Still, given that the Welsh descend from a Romano-British and Brythonic tradition, I can understand the desire to give them a separate culture, but obviously, that was the mod team's decision and I'm sure that in game they be represented fairly and differently from the Scots, despite technically being in the same "culture" according to the game. It's not like they're going to have all the same units and buildings simply because they are in the same "culture."
    Last edited by WinsingtonIII; October 16, 2010 at 02:52 PM.



  6. #6
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    It wasn't a point to be intended for the time-frame... Surely you'd know that considering you didn't pick up the other points that have nothing to do with this time-frame and mod?
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  7. #7

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtichugs123 View Post
    It wasn't a point to be intended for the time-frame... Surely you'd know that considering you didn't pick up the other points that have nothing to do with this time-frame and mod?
    Yes, I noticed the others, but I figured those were ones everyone could easily realize were not part of the time frame. However, many people are under the impression that Scots have worn kilts forever, and I didn't want anyone being misled.

    Sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intent.



  8. #8
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    Lol, mate you far from offended me!

    People are under many impression about us Scots, but unfortunately steryotyping is unavoidable!
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  9. #9
    danova's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture. Where's the division? Plus the Welsh Connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII View Post
    But, good points on how cultures in game are primarily a tool of the game engine, and should not be thought of as trying to seriously portray cultural differences so much as a parameter for the game engine.

    Still, given that the Welsh descend from a Romano-British and Brythonic tradition, I can understand the desire to give them a separate culture, but obviously, that was the mod team's decision and I'm sure that in game they be represented fairly and differently from the Scots, despite technically being in the same "culture" according to the game. It's not like they're going to have all the same units and buildings simply because they are in the same "culture."
    Exactly. Yes, you are right! Thanks!
    .

  10. #10
    danova's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Cinaéd na dTrá Beag! I merged your thread firstly and answered here:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...21#post8275021

    ... and now i to shortend this thread's name!
    .

  11. #11

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Also remember that the Scots of this time are in the middle of a great period of change, the mod begins a couple years before the Kingdom of Alba was officially created.

    So at this time there are Gaels, Picts, Saxons and Norse all living and moving and mixing in the area.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Ahem, ahem, wasn't Whiskey invented by Irish monks and brought to Scotland by them?
    And bagpipes were used early in Sweden too (but they didn't look like Scottish ones, though).
    "I came, I saw, and I didn't believe my eyes!"

  13. #13
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    I hope this show helps
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    The Basic thing is that Ireland is Gaelic and Scotland is Picts.Still its not none if all togeter were all Celtic becaues its not none if the Celts made it to Scotland or not.
    Last edited by PhilipO'Hayda; October 25, 2010 at 03:43 AM.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  14. #14
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Ah, yes, Philip, that's a good'un to watch!

    Good call, my fellow-Celt!
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  15. #15

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    I can understand that the Irish factions and the Scottish factions cultures are seperate, but I don't think that the Irish culture should be called Irish. I think it would make a bit more sense if the Irish culture should be called Gaelic instead.

  16. #16
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch074 View Post
    I can understand that the Irish factions and the Scottish factions cultures are seperate, but I don't think that the Irish culture should be called Irish. I think it would make a bit more sense if the Irish culture should be called Gaelic instead.
    you just went it to sound cool!

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  17. #17
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Stitch074 View Post
    I can understand that the Irish factions and the Scottish factions cultures are seperate, but I don't think that the Irish culture should be called Irish. I think it would make a bit more sense if the Irish culture should be called Gaelic instead.
    Well, maybe yeah. But Scotland is also 'Gaelic', although with much Norse, Anglo-Brythonic influance it is still 'Gaelic'. So, alot more less so Gaelic than the Irish (obviously -.-). But I feel putting the Welsh and Scots under Celtic, is good, and putting the Irish under Irish is a perfect answer. As, the 'Celtic' heading gives a nod to the distinct Brythonic culture the Welsh, Briton and Pict(o-Gaels-Norse-bla) have which separates them from their Gaelic-Celtic brethren across the water!
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  18. #18
    PhilipO'Hayda's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtichugs123 View Post
    Well, maybe yeah. But Scotland is also 'Gaelic', although with much Norse, Anglo-Brythonic influance it is still 'Gaelic'. So, alot more less so Gaelic than the Irish (obviously -.-). But I feel putting the Welsh and Scots under Celtic, is good, and putting the Irish under Irish is a perfect answer. As, the 'Celtic' heading gives a nod to the distinct Brythonic culture the Welsh, Briton and Pict(o-Gaels-Norse-bla) have which separates them from their Gaelic-Celtic brethren across the water!
    Gaelic and Irish is really the same thing, when it cames down to this mod.

    Irish Historical adviser for Albion:Total war


  19. #19
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    I know, that was one of my points!
    Vikingr

    The Last Kingdom


    “For myself, I find I become less cynical rather than more--remembering my own sins and follies; and realize that men's hearts are not often as bad as their acts, and very seldom as bad as their words.”
    - J.R.R Tolkien

  20. #20

    Default Re: Irish and Scottish Culture

    You had to come back and open this topic up?

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