Cavalry of Syracuse and Taras

[FliegerAD]

As promissed, I wrote some info about the Cavalry:

The Cavalry of the Greek motherland was rather weak compared to it’s colonies in South Italy, the so called Magna Graecia.
While the Ίππε̃ις of Sparta were on foot, the Spartan colony Taras could muster 4000 horsemen (cf. Strab.VI 3,4). Although only few is known about their equipment, there are some coins showing a quite heavy armor.

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2559/tarent8oo.jpg

These are from Kraay: Greek Coins (Pl.108, 312f). Further examples are listed in Arnaldo (ed.): A catalogue of the Greek Coins in the British Museum. Italy, p.185, nr.187-198; p.197, nr.274-277; p.201, nr.306.
We see the muscle couirass with πτέγυρες (‘armored flaps’?), the shield, which seems to smaller than an Argive shield, but it is important to note the two attached spears. The right hand is not good to see, maybe it held a spear to, as many other horsemen of Tarantine coinage do. The helmet is crested and was identified as Attic (cf. Kraay, p.315).

Though all numismatic evidence for Syracuse’s cavalry is from Hellenistic age (Agathokles and Hieron II.), there is other evidence. The most important is from Diodor, who tells us that Dionysios the Tyrant of Syracuse ordered to furnish the infantry officiers and the cavalry with 14.000 (!) breastplates of exceptional beauty and craftmen’s art (cf. Diod. XIV 43,2f).
The Syracusian Cavalry was superior in every aspect to the cavaly mustered by Athens. The comparision in Thukydides (Thuk. VI 20,4; 22,1) reveals this as much as the combat records (cf. Thuk. VI 71,2; 88,6; 101,5; VII 4,6; 6,3; 11,2-4; 78,6; 81,2; 84,2). They even managed to defeat Hoplites (cf. Thuk. VI 70,3), that happened very seldom in the classic era.
The wast superiority is noteworthy as the Athenians did have aquired a good cavalry force themselves this time (cf. Spence: Cavalry of Classical Greece, deals with Athenian cavalry almost exclusively).

The tactics used by the Syracusian riders correspond with the equipment shown by Tarantine mintage. The harrass and skirmish with their spears, seldom going for close combat, only when the enemy is disordered.

Archaeology again is helpful in order to clarify the armor. Since the ‘classic’ muscle cuirass is rather bad for riding due to it’s weight, size and inflexibilty, a better muscle cuirass was developed. It bends outwards over the hips, consequently does not hamper the mobility of the rider. Moreover it is lighter than most of the muscle cuirasses of the Greek motherland (cf. Franz: Unteruchungen zu den Hopliten…, p.118).

http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/i...or/musc10b.jpg

The helmets for cavalry should be open faced in order to cope the complex cavalry maneuvers (cf. Xen.Equ. XII 3). Since we have found many Chalcidian Helmets in Magna Greacia, which fits to Xenophons demand, we can assume that this was the helmet used (cf. Snodgrass: Arms and Armor of the Greeks, p.140).
There is absolutly no evidence for shields used by the Syracusian cavalry, but this does not neccessarly means an absence of shields because comparable cavalry did use them. On the other hand, other comparable cavalry did not…

More than noteworthy is the armor of the horses. Since the 6th cent. BC the Greeks in Italy did possess horse armor in form of προμετωπίδια (frontleds ?) and προστερνίδια (breastplates).
These were made of a single bronze plate, unlike later hellenistic horse armor, which was developed under Iranian influence. The Gorgonaion is a very common blazon, while the frontleds probably were decored with feathers like the Italic knights did.

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2...armour21gk.jpg

The Greeks in south Italy were the only Greeks, who had used horse armor. A few exemples were found in Olympia and one in Athens, but they originated from Italy for sure (cf. Kunze: 8. Bericht über die Ausgrabungen in Olympia, p.188).

Campanian and Lucanian knights’ horses had very similar equipment, but sometimes the προστερνίδια were only made of linen (cf. Steingräber: Grabmalereien in Unteritalien, Abb.27).

[apostate]

that kind of specialised info are highly appreciated when they come from people with such good and studied knowledge.....thanks for the help

does it make sense to have a good cavalry for lokroi (of italy) and kroton?


-how big should the spear be?i assume much shorter than the hellenistic spears of the shock cavalry...i d say that its better to give them short spears to throw and big kopis sword to fight with

-also how would u suggest the lighter cavalry version (if any) of syracusians and tarantines to look like and fight?

[FliegerAD]

I am always happy, if I can help. Unfortunatly in General the cavalry of classical Greece is rather obscure due to the fact, that ancient authors stressed the role of the Hoplites.

-how big should the spear be?i assume much shorter than the hellenistic spears of the shock cavalry...i d say that its better to give them short spears to throw and big kopis sword to fight with

The Greek cavalry armament was not standardised at all. Reading the sources we usually see pole arms of various size. The biggest was the κάμαξ, a thrusting spear, which could be thrown as well. Xenophon had very bad experiences with that weapon. On one occasion these spears of the Greek horsemen were not able to penetrate the armor of their Persian enemies, the spears simply broke (cf. Xen.Hell.III 4,13). But obviously it was a very common weapon among the cavalry of the motherland. Otherwise Xenophon would not have had a need to recommend smaller spears capable of throwing as well as thrusting in close combat (cf. Xen.Equ.XII 12).
On the other hand javelins were very popular among the Greeks in Magna Grecia, but also elsewhere on a smaller scale. Thukydides usually reports skirmishing cavalry.
Regarding the tactical role of the Greek cavalry in General (very good outlined by Xenophon in his work about the Cavalry Commander), it is save to say, that spears of various size were used for different situations. Remember there was no standardisation at all concerning the size.
Best solution is to give the Greek cavalry a longer, thicker spear for close combat and slightly thinner spears for throwing.

Some riders may have worn a curved sabre, but it was a very subordinated weapon for the cavalry until Philipp II., when he introduced shock troops, who usually had to fight in close combat. In such a situation a long lance, like the Companions had, is not very good, that’s why they desperatly needed a sabre.
But the Greek cavalry rather used a multifunction spear. Since we have only two weapons, I think the kopis should not be a weapon. Maybe for bodyguards… But as I said, it was not as important as the spears.

-also how would u suggest the lighter cavalry version (if any) of syracusians and tarantines to look like and fight?

There was no strict and straight distinction between heavy and light cavalry as the later Hellenistic armies had. The lighter armored fought together with the more heavily armored. There was no great difference concerning the offensive weapons, the lighter troops had simply less armor.

does it make sense to have a good cavalry for lokroi (of italy) and kroton?

Maybe apart from a few numbers, which are more than doubtworthy, we have no sources concerning the cavalry of Kroton and Lokroi (as far as I know). As the mounted troops of the sourrounding Greeks and Italics were very good, I think there is no reason to assume, that it was all to different, regarding the massive interdependence of their military systems especially concerning cavalry (cf. Alföldy: Herrschaft der Reiterei, p.28-37).
Since they had many wars too, their cavalry had a lot opportunities to gain glory like the Syracusian or later Campanian horsemen, but they did not gain any notable glory.
It might be a good solution, to make them inferior to the Syracusian and Tarantine troops, but superior to other Greeks.

Only my little oppinions.

[apostate]

IMO its quite unsafe to present anything that xenophon suggests for the greek cavalry
besides thats its just out of the mods timeframe,the cavalry of the myrioi is not a pro corp designed to fight mounted
the "myrioi" were hired by kyros so that he has heavy infantry and they did well their job....however he didnt need the greeks for cavalry

when the myrioi were moving back they formed a cavalry using mainly horses they used for transport and for riders they used men who knew little riding or maybe who also havent rided horse before

xenophon himself is uncomfortable with his breast on the horse and he always suggests that to follow how the eastern cavalry operates
its not a surprise they have problem with kamax since that cavalry is formed out of necessity and they were not supposed to fight that way at first
also its not a surprise that some of xenophons suggestions were never used for greeks

as for the kamax itself i think that is a weapon shorter than the hoplite spear and also used overhand and of course smaller than hellenistic cavalry spear
i ve seen pictures from findings that show more than one kamakes of a size that i think it doesnt make impossible to throw it from a close distance as well as impaleenemy without throwing
its certainly smaller and lighter than the hellenistic cavalry spear
its true though that the kamax is prone to break if it fails to penetrate the enemies armour because its not a heavy weapon

the persian "palta" are smaller but i think that they dont apply to the way a greek is used to fight and to the greek warfare and landscape
i think xenophon is wrong suggesting that the greeks should form a hybrid cavalry using persian elements because that use doesnt apply to the needs of greek army and the role of greek cavalry in a warfare which is based in hoplites
the best for the greeks is to carry a kamax along with a couple of javelins

well the kind of wood persians used for their short spears was better and more unlikely to break of course and more specialized but i doubt if its better able to penetrate a greek armour or hoplon shield than the kamax which has a peak special for penetration
however he is right about the kind of helmet he suggests (well thats common logic) and such boiotian style helmets will be present in the game as well as semi open helmets (like those u suggest)



about kopis sword: the light greek cavalry of south hellenic mainland is made as very simple use
it has a short spear to mele and another to throw

for thessalians and macs we have used both short spear as mele and kopis too for the fm bodyguards in Macedonians and mixed for the thessalians (basically the thessalian faction is WIP currently)

also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them
i seriously doubt if it was able to do so without a heavy weapon like a kopis which is the only way to give cavalry an advantage while fighting infantry (given that there is not in use heavy hellenistic type spear)
on the other hand the unit named boiotian cavalry uses the same weapons as the light greek cavalry just it has superior ability

for me its pretty sure that the kopis sword is used for cavalry before the Macedonian cavalry starts using the heavy xyston spear and operate as shock weapon
also maybe the cavalry that jason of pherai used could also have in use the kopis simple because that formation supposes that the cavalry has now more operational roles than before
furthermore the kopis is not at all suitable for long time "swordplay"......its too heavy and inconvient for that use
its more useful to use in time of necessity against other cavalry or infantry but it doesnt provide that much superioty to the shock cavalry if the results of the initial charge isnt the ideal

on the other hand its the only kind of sword that is used in hellenic world that can be useful for a horseman (because the others are either small or thin/suitable only for impale without any thrashing use

i think that before adopted from phillipos it was also in use from thessalians,thebans even maybe from some other greeks

i think we really need the kopis for adding some variety and flavor as well
it will just make the game more interesting without making it unrealistic at all
besides ALL hellenic cavalry units (greek,thessalian,macedonian,italian greek) will have skirmish ability

There was no strict and straight distinction between heavy and light cavalry as the later Hellenistic armies had. The lighter armored fought together with the more heavily armored. There was no great difference concerning the offensive weapons, the lighter troops had simply less armor.

Since they had many wars too, their cavalry had a lot opportunities to gain glory like the Syracusian or later Campanian horsemen, but they did not gain any notable glory.

i think the same too.....

btw sybaris is also said to have a strong cavalry
actually the crotonians are supposed to have beaten them after making a trick to confuse the enemies horses which disordered the whole army
however its not recorded that they used cavalry vs cavalry and that may suggest that they didnt possess the numbers nor the quality to face the sybaritai horsemen

anyway we dont have sybaris as a playable faction though so it doesnt need to worry about making a special horse unit for them....

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here are what i plan in specific
tell me how they sound

tarantine cavalry: (given that the fm bodyguards we want them still to beon feet as planned)
-helmet semi open of attic or chalkidice style with plume (similar to what u see in ionian fm bodyguards)
-metal armour
-medium shield (the square one is ok for me since it makes sense to be insipered by illyrian style tribes of calabria)
-cape
-short spears as missiles and spear
-some horse armour parts as shown in picture (or none)

syracuse cavalry:
-not metal armour but a spolas cloth (something between tunic and lino)
-boiotian style helmet or other open one
-short spear as missiles and spear

syracuse fm bodyguards: (mounted of course-same model as tarantine cav)
-helmet similar to what ionian fm bodyguards wears
-metal breasts
-cape
-short spear as missile and kopis sword
-some horse armour as shown in picture



.....PLUS a lighter version of cavalry (different model than greek hippeis) for all greeks of Italy including Lokroi and Kroton and Sicily (their only cavalry unit)
-pylos helmet
-javs and short spear
-cape
-no armour

[apostate]

Since we have only two weapons, I think the kopis should not be a weapon. Maybe for bodyguards… But as I said, it was not as important as the spears

in case my english dont make good sense (which is more than likely to occur) my point is that since we can have a short spear (not jav) as a missile why not to make a kopis as second weapon for certain superior cavalry units than the fm bodyguards.....that way we show have the spear (as missile) and kopis as well

btw in Italy kopis is used widely both by greeks and by non greeks....for infantry at least

[FliegerAD]

Xenophon did a lot more than just leading his men home after Kunaxa...
Thukydides did never finish his history about the Peloponnesian War, that is what Xenophon did with his Hellenica.
The passage I cited (Xen.Hell. III 4,13), in which the spears broke, happened 396 BC. The Greek horsemen were a Boeotian force fighting together with Agesilaus against a renewed Persian thread, so they were among the best horsemen Greece could muster.

I did not suggest to follow his recommendations in “The Art of Horsemenship”, but it is a very good source to see, what the Greeks did wrong with cavalry – from Xenophon’s point of view. Consequently it is a good source for Greek cavalry, although we don’t have to agree with his recommendations.

also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them also for theban cavalry which is already done i suggested to have a kopis and short spears to throw since its reported to directly engage hoplites in Plataia and slaughtered them.
i seriously doubt if it was able to do so without a heavy weapon like a kopis which is the only way to give cavalry an advantage while fighting infantry

You have to regard the situation. Herodot reports that they were brave, but quite easily routed by the Athenians, when they had to face a phalanx in good order (cf. Hdt. IX 67).
But the Megarians and Philasians were in haste, cought by surprise and in disorder (cf. Hdt. IX 69,2), therefore they were defeated.
Every infantry force in disorder is a rather easy prey for cavalry, no matter how they are armed. Hannibal’s Numidians have proven this more than once.

The Kopis did provide the neccessary ability to fight in close quarters, since the Macedonians could hardly use their long lances after the initial charge because the lance was to long and heavy. Consequently a sword was neccessary.
The classical Greeks meanwhile rather used pole arms of various size, which could be used in many situations, in opposite to Sarissa, Xyston and the later Kontos.

I never said, nobody did use that sword, some certainly did. You said it already, it was the only Greek sword suitable for equestrian use.

i think we really need the kopis for adding some variety and flavor as well
it will just make the game more interesting without making it unrealistic at all
besides ALL hellenic cavalry units (greek,thessalian,macedonian,italian greek) will have skirmish ability

in case my english dont make good sense (which is more than likely to occur) my point is that since we can have a short spear (not jav) as a missile why not to make a kopis as second weapon for certain superior cavalry units than the fm bodyguards.....that way we show have the spear (as missile) and kopis as well

I absolutly agree! Just don’t create to many kopis-armed horsemen and everything is ok, from my point of view.

the best for the greeks is to carry a kamax along with a couple of javelins

Exactly.

here are what i plan in specific
tell me how they sound

In General it sounds very good, I have only a few doubts:

Tarantine Cavalry:
I would prefer a round shield, because it is the only one documented by the sources (coins). Just don’t make it too big.
I would not add horse armor. Most of the evidence for horse armor (depictions and founds) is located at other places. Giving them frontleds is good.

Syracusian Cavalry:
You must give them muscle cuirasses. Although the number of 14.000 might be exaggerated, the proportion of cavalry equipment and infantry equipment is correct. We have to assume that a very big part of the Syracusian horsemen, if not all, were equipped with muscle cuirasses.
I am not sure about the helmet. I would prefer a Chalcidian or Attic type, because almost every depiction of horsemen in south italy shows these types and we have founds masses of them there.
Their horses should have frontleds, too.

Syracusian fm bodyguards:
Led them be the only ones with frontleds and breastplates for the horses, we do not have that much evidence for horse-breastplates. We should reserve them for very rare units.

Light cavalry:
Not sure about the pilos helmet. Yes, some depictions show them, but looking at the Parthenon-Frieze, I would prefer some thick felt caps (Thracian caps).

The spolas:
It is not unreasonable to equip some cavalry units with this piece of armor, but the Tarantine and even more the Syracusian horsemen should have metal breastplates.
If there is the possibility to create some spolas-armed horsemen as addition… why not?

[apostate]

Flieger the Megarians in Plataia were 3000 and the Fliountians were 1000.....
i think it needs more than a light cavalry armed with short spears which break easily to take down 600 of them and rout the rest

You have to regard the situation. Herodot reports that they were brave, but quite easily routed by the Athenians, when they had to face a phalanx in good order (cf. Hdt. IX 67)

those boiotians who were routed by athenians i dont think were mounted,but it refers to the whole of the medised boiotian army

the megarians and fliountians were indeed disordered
but think it that way:
having kopis doesnt mean that they could destroy a unit of ordered hoplites amred with hoplon shield and a spear of over 2 meters long headed upwards
as u said some of them would have that sword anyway
thebans had good cavalry and it makes sense that they use more sophisticated weapons

Tarantine Cavalry:
I would prefer a round shield, because it is the only one documented by the sources (coins). Just don’t make it too big.
I would not add horse armor. Most of the evidence for horse armor (depictions and founds) is located at other places. Giving them frontleds is good.

the coins maybe the only source but i think that kind of shield they show is less suitable than shield that illyrian mounted units used
in fact common sense suggests that the greeks copied many stuff from them when they shettled there

tarantine coins show also horsemen all naked
for horse amrour: i said it following your initial suggestion (maybe i understood it wrong)

Not sure about the pilos helmet. Yes, some depictions show them, but looking at the Parthenon-Frieze, I would prefer some thick felt caps (Thracian caps)

lacedaimonian cavalry when it was formed its likely to wear pylos (and other cavalry too)
the parthenon also shows cavalry with nothing on their heads (i think its panathenaia celebration)
if it shows thracian cap,thats probable because athenians had good trade and political relationships with thracians (see dologges and miltiades family) and later on odrysians
the thracian helmet was developed by athenians after the thracian cap anyway
i dont think the greek cavalry of italy has anything to do with it,right?

only thracian cavalry will have that cap

If there is the possibility to create some spolas-armed horsemen as addition… why not?

maybe we make that light cavalry that way

syracuse cavalry units:
how about this?

--a light cavalry as descriped above (maybe as ZoR unit)

*btw same it is for all greeks of italy*

--syracuse cavalry

You must give them muscle cuirasses. Although the number of 14.000 might be exaggerated, the proportion of cavalry equipment and infantry equipment is correct. We have to assume that a very big part of the Syracusian horsemen, if not all, were equipped with muscle cuirasses.
I am not sure about the helmet. I would prefer a Chalcidian or Attic type, because almost every depiction of horsemen in south italy shows these types and we have founds masses of them there.
Their horses should have frontleds, too.

weapons:short spear as missile and short spear for mele
or javs and short spear?

--syracuse fm bodyguards
as we said before

*so u suggest to give the same helmet for both syracuse cavalry and fm bodyguards
isnt that little boring?
maybe we could give the one of them the helmet u showed me for ionians?
its open in the front so it provides good vision....
we just need a couple of ear openings and it may be good for cavalry


btw what about Gela cavalry? (gela,akragas and lipara will belong to the faction rhodian cities like lokroi will belong to locrian cities)

[FliegerAD]

Flieger the Megarians in Plataia were 3000 and the Fliountians were 1000.....
i think it needs more than a light cavalry armed with short spears which break easily to take down 600 of them and rout the rest

Aristotle said, that the good order of the infantry – not the equipment – broke the superiority of the cavalry (cf. Aris.Pol. 1297b).
Just take a look at the Numidian cavalry, who had nothing but some javelins, slaughtering heavy armed, but disordered enemies.

Anyway, I don’t want to discuss that matter, because I think, that it is not necessary here.

the coins maybe the only source but i think that kind of shield they show is less suitable than shield that illyrian mounted units used
in fact common sense suggests that the greeks copied many stuff from them when they shettled there

tarantine coins show also horsemen all naked

Well, that is a very bold assumption. The shield shown on the coins is of medium or small size (no Argive shields!), which is not really bad for cavalry, actually the later Hellenistic heavy horsemen used exactly such shields. So the depicted shield makes sense.
The main problem is, that you don’t have a source for these Illyrian shields used by the Tarantines. The common sense of a modern man, like you and me, is not really a good evidence.

I would not refuse the only source we have, especially not as this source makes sense.

By the way, most of the naked horsemen on Tarantine coins were indeed naked, they show so-called Ephebes in training, which was done with shield, but otherwise naked.
There is the problem in Greek art , to depict armored men naked sometimes. This has several reasons (“Heroic nakedness”, “Erotic nakedness”), but on Tarantine coins it is not that often.

lacedaimonian cavalry when it was formed its likely to wear pylos (and other cavalry too)
the parthenon also shows cavalry with nothing on their heads (i think its panathenaia celebration)

Can you show me the source, that claims Pilos helmets being common for Greek cavalry?

When I talked about the Thracian caps, it was just an example. In general, I think the Greek cavalry should not have helmets, but rather caps, most notably the Petasos, which was the most common headdress for riders.

weapons:short spear as missile and short spear for mele
or javs and short spear?

--syracuse fm bodyguards
as we said before

*so u suggest to give the same helmet for both syracuse cavalry and fm bodyguards
isnt that little boring?
maybe we could give the one of them the helmet u showed me for ionians?
its open in the front so it provides good vision....
we just need a couple of ear openings and it may be good for cavalry

Regarding the power of the missiles, which even could harm hoplite formations seriously (cf. Thuk. VI 70,3), I’d say short spear for throwing and short spear for melee.

I suggest the Chalcidian helmet for heavy Tarantine, Syracusian and Syracusian Bodyguard cavalry. It’s what the sources say, founds as well as depictions. There is really no evidence for Boeotian helmets in Italy until Hieron II. The coinage of Agathokles (305-295) shows Phrygian helmets, but until that time, we see the Chalcidian helmet only.
This does not mean uniformity. Every helmet was unique and there is a wide range of types among the Chalcidian helmets:

http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/i.../newattic.html

There is even more variety concerning the decorations with feathers, horns and plumes.

The Ionian helmet with uncovered ears… well that is pretty much the Chalcidian helmet, at least they would look very similar.

[apostate]

i didnt tell that pilos is popular for greek cavalrymen
i said that when lacedaimonians formed their own cavalry they used pylos like they used for their infantry,thats all
and maybe there are some more findings showing something similar

just since u asked for helmets for greek cavalry of italy and assuming that chalkidice helmets of semi open type are used for syracuse and taras heavier units (and we have already used it for ionian fm bodyguards),i guessed we need something different for light units and croton-lokroi as well

anyway as u see we have petasos for greek mainland and ionian cavalry so maybe we use the same for them as well

-aristoteles says that before the phalanx use,the advantages of heavy infantry were not exploited and until then cavalry was the superior force in battle
however that reference itself sounds quite weird for some reasons

anyway the boiotian league units are already done and fm bodyguards are hoplites on foot....boiotian cavalry is with short spear as missile and short spear for mele whereas theban hippotai are with kopis and short spear as missile....

-ok we will do tarantine cavalry as it is shown in coin u posted in first post.....
however it would be better if u know a round shield of medium size is actually found anywhere (at least metal parts of it same as they are found from hoplon shields)

because if they are not found,it starts making better sense that they copied native tribes who used for their cavalry shields that dont last in time
after all i doubt if the lacedaimonians who founded the colony at first knew much about horses
the logic says they learnt them from other people who lived there and in some degree they were influenced by them in equipement and tactics....

--------

so what about Gela cavalry?
Gelon himself was in the beginning cavalry commander of Gela

[FliegerAD]

i didnt tell that pilos is popular for greek cavalrymen
i said that when lacedaimonians formed their own cavalry they used pylos like they used for their infantry,thats all
and maybe there are some more findings showing something similar

No. Actually the Greek cavalry in the classic era can be hardly traced at all. The overwhelming mass of depictions, foremost on vases, show the petasos hat.
There is a single Kastor and Polydeukes-monument, maybe showing horsemen with the pilos, which N.Sekunda identified as Lakedaimonian, that is all of Sekunda's evidence.

Try to get Snodgrass Arms and Armor at your university library, he is dealing with the Greek cavalry equipment, too. It is a bit older (last revision 1984), but the more modern books on that subject are not english.

just since u asked for helmets for greek cavalry of italy and assuming that chalkidice helmets of semi open type are used for syracuse and taras heavier units (and we have already used it for ionian fm bodyguards),i guessed we need something different for light units and croton-lokroi as well

Yes, you are right. You need a different headdress for the lighter units. The chalkidian helmet is for the heavy horsemen.
I suggest a petasos, that is just the most common headdress for riders.

because if they are not found,it starts making better sense that they copied native tribes who used for their cavalry shields that dont last in time
after all i doubt if the lacedaimonians who founded the colony at first knew much about horses
the logic says they learnt them from other people who lived there and in some degree they were influenced by them in equipement and tactics

I cannot agree on that. You should not underestimate the Greek horsemenship at the time of the colonisation. In Kyme for example, the cavalry was most dominant.
It is not sure, when the Phalanx was "introduced"/"developed"/etc., but it was definetly not before the foundation of Taras, - even in Sparta.

Snodgrass, Anthony M.: The Hoplite Reform and History, in: JHS 85 (1965), 110ff
Holladay, AJ: Hoplites and Heresies, in: JHS 102 (1982), 94ff
Cartledge P.:Hoplites and Heroes: Sparta’s Contibution to the Technique of Ancient Warfare, in JHS 97 (1977), 20ff
Alföldi, Andreas: Die Herrschaft der Reiterei nach dem Sturz der Könige, in: Gestalt und Geschichte. Festschrift Karl Schefold zu seinem 60. Geburtstag, Bern 1967, 13ff

These works deal with that matter, while the last (Alföldy) shows how strong the Greek horsemenship was in Italy and why.
Both Italics and Greeks were good horsemen, both continued to develope cavalry in interdepedance, while the cavalry in the motherland became obsolete.
In General, it was Greek armory influencing the Italics, not the other way around.

Let us look at the facts: we have one kind of shield used for sure and that kind of shield makes sense from a military point of view.
The neighbouring tribes did use another shield, which also makes sense.

Just because you think, the latter shield was better, it does not mean that the ancient Greeks thought the same. You may could guess that way in absence of sources, if you find comparable examples, but there are none known to me (without researching) and we do have sources stating it otherwise.

You also have to regard that the Lucanian and Campanian horsemen almost never used any shields, although they were excellent horsemen and knew the Illyrian shields. Following your logics, these should have had the illyrian shields, too...
Moreover, why should the Greeks present another shield on their coinage than they actually used? The nakedness can be explained, that could not be explained.

All I can do, is recommending to stick on the sources, we have. Make the sources to your standard, not your thoughts.
If this does not convince you, we have different oppinions... well, this can happen. Don't take it personal :-)


The sources on Gela's cavalry are very, very rare, in absence of sources (known to me) I guess they were influenced by the excellent Syracusian horsemen.

PS: I will send you something concerning Aristotle. This man has a well deserved reputation and this passage makes sense...

[apostate]

the lacedaimonians and the tarantines (since they are laks too) show usually the dioskouroi mounted in art
that means its possible that when u see coins etc with 2 lads and horse to be a phantasy image of them

the lak cavalry (not the merc cavalry which was used in lacedaimonian army) was made by those who were not suitable of fighting in the phalanx
also the armies had unified look at that time that lacedainomian cavalry was formed
i would be surprised if they used different head cover than they used for the foot soldiers

in the ending of messenian war the spartans are already reported to fight in a more organized way than the messenians who are based only in their bravery
anyway where is the references that say spartans and messenians actually fight with cavalry?

the phalanx doesnt exist of course
but in 650 it should exist
and in 750 the findings of armour is not different than those of one century later,except that argolic shield is missing.....
that shield was necessary for phalanx warfare but also the spartan society which gave birth to organized and disciplined fighing was based in lykourgos laws (ok he should be mythological or semimythological person) which should be dated for much time before the first wars with messenians

the phalanx didnt appear out of a sudden but is a continous development (like it is after classical era too)
the cavalry has little to do with it
the greeks fight on foot traditionally
u dont have reference for use of heavy cavalry
even if it was used by nobles which i doubt,in best case those would be really few of them fighing in unrealistic ways of mounted early hoplites and in worst case that would look like medieval feud armies in archaic Hellas

there is nothing really that suggests use of heavy cavalry (if there is show me)

about that shield: the only evidence u have for the round shield is from coins not for a real finding
in the coins of taras u can also see a deity with such shield riding the dolphin…so what?

is there any real finding of remains of such shield?
anyway thats a little thing,we ll make the shield like the coin probable

i may be wrong but archaic pics of cavalry before the phalanx was introduced and operated eventually showing mounted early hoplites with big shields and a pair of spears doesnt look that they really can fight that way holding the big shield in one hand and driving the horse with the either.....that would leave no hand to hold an offensive weapon
on the other hand they look like they go in battlefield on horse but they would really give the fight on foot

so the horse could be a mean of transport to the battlefield for a wealthy or noble or high officer and not to actually fight on it
like maybe earlier (or in places like Kypros or Libya) the chariot was used as well

You also have to regard that the Lucanian and Campanian horsemen almost never used any shields, although they were excellent horsemen and knew the Illyrian shields. Following your logics, these should have had the illyrian shields, too...
Moreover, why should the Greeks present another shield on their coinage than they actually used? The nakedness can be explained, that could not be explained.

the greeks were not good horsemen….only exceptions were the thessalians and boiotians who were just more skillful riders than the rest southern greeks
the greek landscape is not good for using horses and also we dont breed good stock of horses here! (ok maybe in Elis some good horses were bred sometime)

the greeks when the settled in other regions by colonizing them they adopted to that places and were influenced of the native elements
i m pretty sure that they were lousy riders when they arrived there but benefited from other people (while benefiting them too) and upgraded their warfare...thats all
so the greeks of Asia Minor and Italy obtained considerable cavalry eventually

the horses is just a sign of wealth and of high social class
its was not a sign of warlike man....
the class "hippeis" which is common for greek states apply to that one who can afford to have a horse NOT the one who fights on horse

the athenians or the peloponnesians didnt even have their own cavalry in xerxes inavasion
however the sicilian greeks for example already had considerable cavalry
and that cavalry was developed under their specific needs in that region they lived

the non greek may have copied the metal breasts but the greeks copied the art of fighting on horse....

All I can do, is recommending to stick on the sources, we have. Make the sources to your standard, not your thoughts.
If this does not convince you, we have different oppinions... well, this can happen. Don't take it personal :-)

which is the ultimate and unquestionable source?the coins which can show an imaginary picture? (anyway i trust u and the shield will be made round)
the common is that people disagree.....
as the greeks said only a stupid man agrees with with everything another one says :wink:

thanks for the detailed info,they were really good help for making italian greeks as much accurate as possible

[apostate]

is this from gela?
http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=monete76ah.jpg

[FliegerAD]

Yes, a Tetradrachm around 480BC. Some naked horsemen coins from Gela exist that time. These shall symbolize the importance of Gela's cavalry, while the nakedness shall symbolize their heroic fighting ("Heroic Nakedness", which did not affect the headdress).
Most intressting is a rider with some kind of Phrygian helmet (cf. Kraay, Pl.55).

These coins were minted, before Gela moved some of the population to Syracuse.
Why do you ask?

btw.: We better don't discuss the Greek horsemenship of the Dark and Archaic Ages here, that is not the topic. I don't want to fight about off-topic...

[apostate]

Yes, a Tetradrachm around 480BC. Some naked horsemen coins from Gela exist that time. These shall symbolize the importance of Gela's cavalry, while the nakedness shall symbolize their heroic fighting ("Heroic Nakedness", which did not affect the headdress).
Most intressting is a rider with some kind of Phrygian helmet (cf. Kraay, Pl.55).

These coins were minted, before Gela moved some of the population to Syracuse.
Why do you ask?

i just wanted to be sure that its from gela.....

The sources on Gela's cavalry are very, very rare, in absence of sources (known to me) I guess they were influenced by the excellent Syracusian horsemen.

the sources about the excellent syracusian cavalry are from the times of syracuse rise
how u know that the excellent syracuse cavalry wasnt influenced by lets say gela cavalry before those times?

generally speaking all most sicilian cities had cavalry before syarcuse gain control of a big part of sicily
even selinous city in the other side of the island had capable horsemen....i doubt if the syracousians introduced all that stuff to the other greeks of sicily.....

[FliegerAD]

the sources about the excellent syracusian cavalry are from the times of syracuse rise
how u know that the excellent syracuse cavalry wasnt influenced by lets say gela cavalry before those times?

I can’t know. What we do know are reports of strong Syracusian cavalry at the time of Gelon (before the battle of Himera), who could muster 2000 (heavy) cavalry and 2000 light cavalry (cf. Hdt. VII 158,4). That is pretty much at the beginning of the timeline of your mod.
Gelon was tyrant of Gela, too, so there was a strong connection of Syracuse’s and Gela’s forces, which undoubtedly influenced both cavalry forces.

Nevertheless, reports about strong and capable cavalry from Syracuse are predominant, while Gela’s cavalry is seldom described (compared to the Syracusian).

Do you suggest Gela had a strong cavalry, which is not reported by the sources and which somehow almost disappeared after having influenced the Syracusian?

Well, I can’t say that it is wrong for sure, but it can’t be proven as well…

My main argument against a strong cavalry of Gela is your faction list. Giving Gela a strong cavalry would mean to give a strong cavalry to the other Rhodian cities, too…

[apostate]

that will be no problem if we make it province specific unit restrained only to Gela city...

Do you suggest Gela had a strong cavalry, which is not reported by the sources and which somehow almost disappeared after having influenced the Syracusian?

i dont suggest anything,just i make random thoughts.....as u said the first sources for Syarcusian cavalry is from the time of Gelon who came from Gela city itself....

[FliegerAD]

Actually I see no reason, to make Gela's cavalry as strong or even stronger than Syracuse's cavalry. The latter's performance is simply to impressive, while there is almost nothing about Gela's horsemen.

Don't get me wrong, they should have a capable mounted force, but not that strong, I think.

just my 2 Eurocent... what do you think?

[apostate]

i think the best is to make a medium cavalry (we already have one with spolas,simple semi-open helmet,small shield and short spears as missile/mele weapon) available to the whole italy and sicily provinces and just for syracuse,taras and campanians/lucanians have an even better version as described in that thread....

[FliegerAD]

sounds reasonable.

[Kleomenis]

that was extremely interesting to read. thanks for the knowledge u offered us.