Submod: Carl - Economy for Runaways

[smitty]

I've been eagerly watching this thread hoping to see some good results. Underdevelopment of cities is really my only criticism of RR/RC, but because every other aspect I love I still only play this submod.

Rather than sitting around waiting for results however, I'll pitch in some help and try this script out with a Moorish Late Era Campaign, perhaps a few others. I'll try to commit to at least 100 turns and see how things go.

Question: Because the AI still usually commits some money to buildings without this script, am I right in assuming all the extra cash they were spending on expensive buildings will be put towards troop recruitment? In other words, will this mod add a few extra stacks of troops per AI faction due to more money from not spending on buildings?

Update:

You've removed the camp sacking script? I no longer receive supplies when I attack another field army with my own. That's a great script I hate to see removed if you did remove it...

[Point Blank]

I did not remove it

[smitty]

I did not remove it

Ah I was meaning Putz's uploaded file. Did you work on that with him too? Because if not, I think he removed the sacking script.

[Point Blank]

No I didn't.

[Fred Putz]

I didn´t change anything except for the "AI-money dept script" and building costs.

"Changelog"
- Deleted old AI money script (standard city/castle bonus + special scripts for moors/HRE/mongols/timurids)
- Implemented new one (see link in first post)
- changed building costs to "1" for every AI-Building

That´s all - countername wasn´t in use before, so everything else should be as before (and is in my current campaign - sacking script works)

Only thing that went wrong: I uploaded my own descr_strat - so the rebel/pirate spawning rate is much lower than in the original. (This is only for the optional file which changes Rhodes and Cyprus to cities)

In fact the initial money for the AI is a bit lower with this script - but that extra money the AI had before was added by "add_money" and now they don´t have to spend money on buildings.

I didn´t notice a change in AI stack numbers - "problem" is the same as before. The Nations are making good money till turn 50-100 and then they go down with their treasury. Then the script helps them not running into dept and they will go back to normal if they either make more money or lost some units - can work in 1 turn or could take much longer if e.g. not at war and on an island. But the settlements will be further developed in that time. With the old script everything was almost the same. The Treasury at turn 50-100 was higher due to the added money but there was nothing to help them - so some nations were lost if running into dept.

Edit: I wanted to change as few things as possible - because StSt with RR/RC is the best MTW experience I had so far.
Well balanced and everything in there seems to make sense - that´s why i haven´t even played 6.3 so far.

Edit # 2: Results with this script are satisfying. A "money/economy script" itself can´t be better. The remaining "problems" are elsewhere - Unit-overproduction when the AI has money, AI priorities of construction, AI spending money in general. So those problems are more CAI related and i haven´t found a method to check for the income so far - but rozanov is working on that in the RozMod (for 6.3) if i got that right.

[Gorrrrrn]

Ran I test with all towns rozmod and SS6.3 with G5's economy script (different to the old one) plus some other changes.

changed the recruit_priority_offset of ships from -50 to -25 (approx) and dropped RPO for heavy cavalry from 30 - 50 to 25 - 35.
(AI still recruiting plenty of cavalry but there seem to be more ships.)
(Spotted thread in mod workshop where there was acomplaint that the AI over-produced ships unless RPO was very negative.)

also cut recruitment pool for all cavalry to 1. (as it's a 2TPY all towns mod I should cut replenishment rate to 25% of original
(twice as many turns per year + twice as many potential settlements that recruit.)

latest test run at T199 so english should be getting lots of new improved and expensive units
(their's is the only economy that's thriving in game - up to 500,000 fl - many others are flat-lined.)
mainly as I keep waking them up to attack the Moors - otherwise they'd just sit there and recruit and not lose armies.)
(Oh and had to intervene -the moors were about to achieve their victory conditions before T200 !)

so will update on results.

over-production when AI has money -can only be dealt with by cutting replenishment rates and recruitment pools.
(which is same for human player so no advantage either way.)

a more aggressive (but discriminating) CAI might use up more units more quickly.

[AClockworkOrange]

I sometimes get the feeling that you're both trying to fix a broken dam with duct tape.

Update:

I'm at T87 with Venice, so maybe it's still a bit early to tell the effects of the script.

[Fred Putz]

Thanks for sharing your progress.
Nations slowly started to request Carl for some help - and of course if he´s doing a good job in one nation the others want to get that too - obviously.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Hmm - if i have a look at my "treasury" maybe i could need that too. One Year would be enough!

Small Question btw: Is the camp sacking script working in Your campaign? Smitty had some problems but it´s working in my campaign. With Your campaign counting in we´ll have a (very representative) majority for the one or the other - except for - Your´s is just working sometimes.

[AClockworkOrange]

The camp sacking script seems to be working fine.

[Point Blank]

I'm keen to try this but don't have time to test, interested to hear test results

[Gorrrrrn]

apologies - error in ship spawn script.
french ships should spawn x 67, y 169 (and not x 67, y 123 - which is on the spanish mainland
--
testing my experimental version of G5's script in SS6.3 - removed everything that tkaes money away if
the AI has "too much money" - as previously it tended to over-produce if given the money.

only first run but even when it has the money the AI doesn't necessarily over-produce -
or rather if we change the recruit priority offset to produce more ships it gets on with the game
instead of just sitting there accumulating units it eventually can't afford.

(england had, by T230 over 2M fl, and wasn't recruiting everything it could, only what it needed)
I had to jump start its aggression but it carried on after that.

even the slave faction was very quiet with its recruiting - even sitting on 1M fl !

problem then is also related to RPO and CAI - its not just the money the AI gets.

(gotta go -Merlin on soon!)

[k/t]

Nations slowly started to request Carl for some help

Who's Carl?

[AClockworkOrange]

I'm at about T110, and I've been battling Fatimid Caliphate, Hungary, and Genova-Pisa off and on for the last 100 years. I've noticed that they are actually repairing buildings that were damaged during sieges. It sometimes takes them a few turns, but it's definitely happening. In the settlements I've captured from non-rebels, buildings seem to be getting upgraded, too. Which is pretty nice because one irritating aspect is capturing a city/castle only to discover it only had basic buildings. I'm starting to see more citadels, but no huge cities yet - still a little early I guess. Production Ranking off of the Sovereignty Ranking scrolls looks like a saw, so it looks like something is kicking in.

[smitty]

30 turns in as Moors Late Era Campaign: Enemy cities seem to be developing at a great rate with upgraded builidngs, some of them are actually growing at a decent rate too, which was rare with the older script. Pleased to finally move into a town and see it is on par with my own other towns developmentally.

The biggest problem I seem to be picking up on however is the amount of stacks running around with all of this extra money. I'm guessing the AI will recruit every possible unit available given it has the money to do so. This seems to be happening and some factions with only 3-4 regions have at least 4-5 full stacks running around. This is on Hard campaign difficulty. Previously it felt far more balanced with that many regions only yielding perhaps 2-3 full stacks. Norway and its three starting regions (which aren't very bolstered financially, mind you) has 3 full stacks guarding its border to Denmark, which seems a bit OP for only 30 turns in and no expansion. While I'm always a fan of a faction putting up a big fight, I don't like seeing them overpowered for their meager holdings either. Balance still needs to be developed I feel. On the other hand, most of these factions with too many stacks for their few regions are also bankrupt, which is potentially good because it means they've maxxed their army potential. Perhaps how much Carl helps them initially could be reduced, so that they have perhaps 2 instead of 4 full stacks if only occupying 2-4 regions. Bankruptcy I'm guessing is a good sign, because buildings keep getting produced while armies stay constant. On a side note, this could be bad, because unless those armies get used, they'll never develop along with the new available units unless they're getting wiped out to make financial room for recruitment of more elite units.

Further proof factions are too strong at start is that after 30 turns the Khwarezm has 4 full stacks defending after losing only 2-3 regions to the Mongols so far. Usually the Khwarezm economy isn't strong at start of Late Era Campaign so they get wiped out fast (or severely diminished), which is historically accurate and pleasing. Right now its looking like they might hold out just fine... which is disconcerting.

Also, PB, out of my last 10 campaigns with your latest update, as well as this latest one with the Carl subscript, the HRE is still getting their trash handed to them. 9 times out of 10 France and Denmark claim all northern HRE territories within only 30-40 turns, which then allows Milan to take the Alps and Venice takes Austria. Nearly every campaign the HRE makes a final stand in southern Italy and is finally wiped out around turn 50-70. Also, it seems Frankfurt getting Crusaded on happens 9 times out of 10 also... HRE needs some serious help.

[Point Blank]

Noted Thanks. Is HRE getting crushed in Early, Late or both?

[Fred Putz]

Who's Carl?

It´s Carl Harrison to be more precise.

I'm at about T110, and I've been battling Fatimid Caliphate, Hungary, and Genova-Pisa off and on for the last 100 years. I've noticed that they are actually repairing buildings that were damaged during sieges. It sometimes takes them a few turns, but it's definitely happening. In the settlements I've captured from non-rebels, buildings seem to be getting upgraded, too. Which is pretty nice because one irritating aspect is capturing a city/castle only to discover it only had basic buildings. I'm starting to see more citadels, but no huge cities yet - still a little early I guess. Production Ranking off of the Sovereignty Ranking scrolls looks like a saw, so it looks like something is kicking in.

Should exactly be this way - nice! The "saw" effect is most because of the reduced military force when it goes down - but they will recover.

The biggest problem I seem to be picking up on however is the amount of stacks running around with all of this extra money. I'm guessing the AI will recruit every possible unit available given it has the money to do so. This seems to be happening and some factions with only 3-4 regions have at least 4-5 full stacks running around. This is on Hard campaign difficulty. Previously it felt far more balanced with that many regions only yielding perhaps 2-3 full stacks. Norway and its three starting regions (which aren't very bolstered financially, mind you) has 3 full stacks guarding its border to Denmark, which seems a bit OP for only 30 turns in and no expansion. While I'm always a fan of a faction putting up a big fight, I don't like seeing them overpowered for their meager holdings either. Balance still needs to be developed I feel. On the other hand, most of these factions with too many stacks for their few regions are also bankrupt, which is potentially good because it means they've maxxed their army potential. Perhaps how much Carl helps them initially could be reduced, so that they have perhaps 2 instead of 4 full stacks if only occupying 2-4 regions. Bankruptcy I'm guessing is a good sign, because buildings keep getting produced while armies stay constant. On a side note, this could be bad, because unless those armies get used, they'll never develop along with the new available units unless they're getting wiped out to make financial room for recruitment of more elite units.

Of course every campaign is a bit different, but i noticed that they won´t recruit more units than before. Without this script they had much more money to spend. They won´t recruit every possible unit - the AI can compare income and upkeep to a certain point, but when they start to be at war a lot or loosing income elsewhere it´s likely that they run into dept.

When Carl is active they can´t produce more units - it´s the same as the freeze_recruitment in the 6.3 script. Just another way of doing it. They will have a maximum of 50 florins to spend (not counting in events of course) each turn. Producing more units while running into dept is the worst thing the AI can do.

Carl isn´t active if a nation isn´t bankrupt - anything else failed in my tests. Adding money for no reason doesn´t help and taking away money to cap the treasury doesn´t help (better than adding, but in the end sometimes it´s the wrong moment)

Gold star variant would be to kill the redundant units by script - possible, but nonetheless hard to achieve. Problem is (for me): the right moment. Killing an army marching to any enemy settlement to get more imcome next turn? Wrong! Killing units used for public order? Wrong! Killing Units that will defend something next turn? Wrong! Would like to see this, but could be the longest script ever - and there would be a need to edit other files too.

Noted Thanks. Is HRE getting crushed in Early, Late or both?

I just tested early campaign. Except for one test HRE was crushed. It´s because they will be excommunicated i think. In one campaign HRE was crushed by milan - then milan by venice. Perhaps "big" european nations want a bit too much and have to pay that price. Perhaps that won´t happen in a medium or easy campaign - but on hard and very hard they´re all very aggressive if there´s a chance. As soon as they loose a battle or too others will declare war on them too.

[AClockworkOrange]

HRE has about 5 territories in my campaign. Their problem is they go to war with the entire world.

I'm playing on VH/VH, but I'm not running into the same problem as smitty. I'm in constant battle; not anything more than what I've encountered on VH, though.

[Gorrrrrn]

HRE has about 5 territories in my campaign. Their problem is they go to war with the entire world.

from what I've seen in various incarnations of SS - the same thing usually happens - HRE expands (and being surrounded by catholics inevitably has to fight them
- takes no notice of pope warnings, gets ex-commed and then crushed. not really an economic problem at all - but a CAI one (and poss victory conditions?)

short of giving the hre a more passive CAI - or simply a more patient one, we're stuck with that I think.

same with other factions that run short of money early in game - they're nearly always at war with neighbours from T10 or T20.
extra money won't help much, but we can't expect neighbours not to attack each other. so there will always be some casualties.

it was fascinating to see Genoa in latest test went from T60 - T260 with no cap on money (and agree with FP - there seems little point in having a cap)
plenty of units they could recruit but because they were mainly at peace they had no need to defend borders (allies) and most obvious enemies were often too strong to attack.
so it maintained its economy in a steady state for 200 turns.

chopping back on what the AI can recruit also helps - if the problem is upkeep > income, then we restrict recruitment to a level that a gradual increase in income can sustain -
all other things being equal. (and cut upkeep )

the destroy_units script i restrict to cruade/jihad and generic mercs currently. The AI (in SS6.3) rarely recruits mercs - except when going on crusade / jihad anway.
most of those armies will be stuck miles from home and a waste of faction money. the generic mercs only disband if a faction is short of cash.

I don't know enough about CAI but is there a way for factions with little money to stop being so aggressive?
and also to stop getting ex-commed so easily?

[Kaidonni]

If you don't mind me asking...I'm trying to merge this with my own personal SS 6.3 submod, and while I've got the campaign_script figured out, what does the edb do exactly? I'm using the MSC 3.2 submod also, so...does the edb do anything in particular? Or is it all scripted?

EDIT: Missed the freezing of recruitment pool lines when reading over the campaign_script. I copied and pasted it all, just couldn't figure out where in the edb the freezing happened. LOL.

[Fred Putz]

Sorry i´m having serious PC Problems for a few days now. Want to change to windows 7 the next days so i´m not able test anything.

To Your questions:

The "freeze recruitment" is made by "freezing" the treasury at a low amount - lower than the cheapest unit in this case (there´s one crusader/jihad unit that´s cheaper).

EBD change is just adding a single line in every wall and every castle which gives a bonus of 100 to construction costs if the building is AI controled.