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Thread: Wellington's Smallest Victory

  1. #1

    Default Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Last weekend I was press-ganged into accompanying my daughter to London where she was attending an audition for one of those cringe-worthy game shows (something akin to 'Dating in the dark' I think).

    Anyway having dropped her off at the allotted time and place I had about three hours to kill and decided to take a look around the British Museum nearby. After almost three hours of looking at a lot of stonework with very little information associated with it, I decided it was time to quit the museum and make my way back to Tottenham Court Road so that I was close on hand when summoned by text.

    As I was walking back I discovered one of those little London books shops, that trustingly display a range of their wares on a table placed outside on the pavement, and my eye was attracted by a paperback depicting a Napoleonic battle scene and the words 'Wellington's Smallest Victory' embossed over it. Closer inspection revealed that it was written by Peter Hofschroer one of the few historians that I actually respect, but I'd never heard of this particular work.

    I picked it up to find out what it was about and was surprised to discover that it was the history of the making of the battlefield model of Waterloo by William Siborne, and how Wellington ably assisted by his cronies both in government and the army managed to both discredit and ruin Siborne and destroy the accuracy of the model.

    It was actually in a sale for just over £3 and I bought it without hestitation.

    I can highly recommend this book for anyone who is interested in the Battle of Waterloo. Not only does it detail the sad fate of Sibourne and his model, but it explains in considerable detail why the true history of the Battle of Waterloo continues to be a matter of great controversy and why so many histories of it have been corrupted and misled by those who were there and knew better, but chose to lie and corrupt the history of the battle for their own ends.

    Ideally, it should be read after Sibournes 'Waterloo Letters' as these really set the scene for what follows in the book. Though for me the most interesting aspect was that 'Waterloo Letters' is apparently just a tiny sample of the correspondence that Sibourne entered into with the witnesses of all nations who were there on the day. Many of whom went to great lengths to provide Sibourne with a truthful account of events.

    It's a truly interesting read for anyone who, like me, is keen to get beyond the official history of the battle and find out what really happened at Waterloo and in history generally. I think I can now rightly place Sibourne on my list of true heroes when it comes to the handful of people prepared to sacrifice everything for the sake of discovering the truth.
    Last edited by Didz; October 10, 2010 at 06:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Prince of Darkness's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Siborne (1797-1849) died in poverty, as a bitterly disappointed man.

  4. #4
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    I was fortunate to see the restored model in the early 1990s at the National Army Museum in London. Unfortunately the lack of space meant it was impossible to view the model from all angles. Nevertheless it made a lasting impression.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Essling View Post
    I was fortunate to see the restored model in the early 1990s at the National Army Museum in London. Unfortunately the lack of space meant it was impossible to view the model from all angles. Nevertheless it made a lasting impression.
    I believe its back on display at the National Army Museum in London, so I may have to take a trip and have a look myself. Were you allowed to take photographs do you recall?

    I don't suppose that it has been corrected and had the Prussian's put back.

    BTW: I stumbled across this site. http://www.files.maproom.org/00/24/index.php which has copies of the maps that Siborne's produced based upon the evidence he collected. Quite interesting especially as they support Barbero's assertion's of the deployment of D'Erlon's Corps at the start of the battle.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 04:58 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    http://www.achart.ca/wellington/index.htm
    Some info here
    I agree Siborne was made the victim of the Duke's ego by including the Prussians in his model which I believe was to show the situation at 7pm.

    However, there have been enough criticisms of Hofschroer's manipulation of his non English sources to further his agenda (as I showed in detail in a former thread on the Zieten,Mueffling correspondence and the Pflugk-Harttung inquiry into the arrival times of the Prussians) for his conclusions to be considered suspect at least.In fact his agenda seems as suspect as the Duke's himself.
    I realise this refers to Quatre Bras but I would like to see the details of any source Hofschroer quotes after this. I wonder if the foreign sources for 'Smallest Victory' are available.
    firstempire.net/samples/sample82.pdf (Google that,can't copy url)

    http://ilovewargameing.21.forumer.co...h_post652.html

    Even Gareth Glover,apparently an admirer of Hofschroer and author of 'Waterloo Archives', is suspicious of the manipulation or omission of German sources and writes his own account while admitting his own ignorance or inadequate knowledge of the primary sources.Perhaps not such an admirer of PH after all
    http://wih.sagepub.com/content/12/4/448.extract
    ' However this tiny portion of German material was virtually all that was available to students of this campaign who did not possess a high level of German language skills until very recently and it is therefore not very surprising that early British histories of the battle have largely sidelined the achievements of the German troops and this stance has been regurgitated by most that have followed. This situation did not change at all until the 1990�s when Peter Hofschroer published his two volume version of the campaign from the German perspective, which included numerous snippets of various German documents published for the first time in English to support his view of the campaign; but even this is not satisfactory as it left much more still to be translated and published and did not provide the whole document to allow further interpretation. There is therefore, still a great need to provide an English version of much of the original German source material to aid historians redress this imbalance.
    Such a task is truly daunting, not just because of the scale of the task, but also the inordinate amount of time needed by a translator with the appropriate level of language skills and grasp of military history and terminology to produce a coherent, meaningful translation. I made a small venture into this area when I published �Letters from the Battle of Waterloo� in 2004, when publishing the remaining Siborne letters, having cause to obtain translations of the numerous German letters in the files. I experimented with various means but all had their problems; professional translators proved extortionately expensive; charitable organisations which one still felt honour bound to recompense or friends and acquaintances who required no fee but forced me to accept interminable delays were all unsatisfactory. I was therefore perhaps understandably not very keen to venture into translation work again'.

    Send them to me then Mr Glover, I could do with the translation fee,not too extortionate.
    We've discussed all this on various forums
    http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/...4&amp%3Bpage=1

    I think this sums up Hofschroer's idea of ' evidence'
    The way to do it, is the way Hofschroer did it:
    1) First, you take 3 accounts written two decades apart, and pretend they were one document.
    2) You take a claim made originally under the threat of court marshal, and you pretend it was written objectively as part of a 'journal'.
    3) You then fail to point out that your whole thesis depends upon Zeiten being a fortune teller & sending a letter over 2 hours before the battle began! And finally
    4) Just as people are starting wise up, you enlist the support of the main authority, Dr Pflugk-Harttung, and pretend he agrees. You then insult anyone who shows this isn't true.

    If you'll excuse the expression,most of these 'experts' are pissing in the wind.
    Last edited by Jihada; October 10, 2010 at 09:02 PM. Reason: h

  7. #7
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz View Post
    I believe its back on display at the National Army Museum in London, so I may have to take a trip and have a look myself. Were you allowed to take photographs do you recall?

    I don't suppose that it has been corrected and had the Prussian's put back.

    BTW: I stumbled across this site which has copies of the maps that Siborne's produced based upon the evidence he collected. Quite interesting especially as they support Barbero's assertion's of the deployment of D'Erlon's Corps at the start of the battle.
    Checked the Museum's site and it is on display in the "Change the World Gallery 1784-1904" http://www.nam.ac.uk/exhibitions/changingTheWorld/. It sounds as if it is the whole model. At the time of my visit you weren't allowed to take photos inside the Museum, but with the development of better digital cameras this may have changed - I cannot find anything about photo restrictions on the Museum's website.

    On the website for Siborne's maps, I presume you meant to include this link: http://www.files.maproom.org/00/24/index.php ?
    Last edited by Prince of Essling; October 11, 2010 at 03:00 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Prince of Essling View Post
    I presume you meant to include this link: http://www.files.maproom.org/00/24/index.php ?
    Yes, thank you for pointing out the ommission and I've added it where it was meant to go.

    @Jihada: As far as Hofschoer is concerned my view is that he was one of the first historians to break the thin red line of the English myth which had remained unmoved and supported by Wellington and his cronies since the battle, and regurguitated by most historians ever since.

    He also did more than most to publish in detail how he came to his conclusions, which compared even to more recent authors like Barbero is quite refreshing. Not surprisingly the historical research community tried to pull his work to pieces like a pack of rabid dogs because it made their's look like the plagerised rubbish most of it truly is, and to defend their books they had to discredit his, hence all the libel trials.

    It's perhaps typical that as you point out most of the German letters still rmeain untranslated by historian's, whose search for the truth is obviously fired by such amazing zeal, and yet they manage to translate enough to debunk the lot and declare themselves satisfied.

    Nevertheless this thread is not about Hofschroer or his opponents in the British history society, but about Sibourne who appears to have rendered himself destitute trying to discover the truth about the battle of Waterloo.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 05:13 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    There are many of these 'experts' getting in on the act now with their different agendas but I wonder if any of them have looked objectively at the source material. For example
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Won-Wate.../dp/1843753006

    http://www.whowonwaterloo.co.uk/

    Damn more expense,I might get that. £25 !! Looks like some nice photos of his model though.
    Quite amusing these British writers competing to have the most German sounding name.
    Last edited by Jihada; October 11, 2010 at 07:12 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Exactly, if Graham Glover is correct and the vast majority of the German source material has not even been translated or read since it was collected by Sibourne then the answer would have to be a resounding No!

    So, anyone writing a book entitled 'Who won Waterloo' can't be adding anything to the evidence and must just be regurgitating the same stale arguements already made by the pro-Wellington and pro-Prussian factions before adding their own subjective analysis and judgement.

    In other words we are being expected to pay for nothing new, just buying the same information we already have on our book shelf in a revised format with some new pictures added. Its the oldest trick in the book, quite literally. On that basis I could easily write a history of the 1815 campaign simply by cutting and pasting extracts from all the books in my library. Hofschroer, at least came up with fresh sources which I for one had never read before.

    However, it sounds like Sibourne still holds the record for having read more evidence than any historian since the battle, and one wonders why this material hasn't been put to better use since. Perhaps I should read his history of the campaign as it sounds like it should be the most informed version available. Although I understand even he didn't get any evidence from the Dutch or the French.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 07:19 AM.

  11. #11
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Agree with much that Didz & Jihada have written on this. The photos accompanying the review of 'Who won Waterloo' are not from the model (unless they have redone it completely which I doubt!).

    If you want to read Siborne without having to shell out for a copy you can download a version at http://www.jeux-histoire.fr/doc/siborne.pdf

    The Official Bulletins on Waterloo in the original languages & translations into English by John Palfrey Burrell are at http://www.jeux-histoire.fr/doc/bulletinswaterloo.pdf

    At http://www.jeux-histoire.fr/doc/booth.pdf is "The Battle of Waterloo containing the accounts published by authority both British & Foreign and other Relative documents with circumstantial details previous and after the battle from a variety of authentic and original sources".

    I have yet to read either of the last two books.
    Last edited by Prince of Essling; October 11, 2010 at 07:39 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Some interesting stuff there,thanks Actually Prince I understood the model in the 'Who won Waterloo' book is by the author himself not the original Siborne model. I do agree with Didz it seems a bit of a gimmick but I am intrigued to see what sources he uses.
    As for Hofschroer,well he has only made use of German documents such as the correspondence and testimony of Zieten,Pflugk-Harttung etc which have been available for over 100 years, The problem is his distortion of those sources which has been amply proven.
    I havn't seen Wellington's letter to La Felte (sp ?) however.
    Last edited by Jihada; October 11, 2010 at 08:00 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jihada View Post
    As for Hofschroer,well he has only made use of German documents such as the correspondence and testimony of Zieten,Pflugk-Harttung etc which have been available for over 100 years, The problem is his distortion of those sources which has been amply proven.
    You surpise me as both the gentlemen you mention were senior Prussian Officers, and yet Hofschoer's books are full of extracts translated from the actual regimental reports of the Prussian Regiments involved in the battle.

    Is the suggestion then that he made all these up?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jihada View Post
    As for Hofschroer,well he has only made use of German documents such as the correspondence and testimony of Zieten,Pflugk-Harttung etc which have been available for over 100 years, The problem is his distortion of those sources which has been amply proven.
    Both the above gentlemen were senior Prussian Officers, and yet much of the valuable information contained in Hofschroer's books comes from much more junior sources, such as the regimental history of the 6th Infantry Regiment.

    These reports and notes are extremely detailed even naming the junior officers involved in incidents and to blame for failures.

    Is it really the suggestion of the pro-Wellington brigade that Hofschroer made all these details up?

    If so, I can only say that Hofschroer is in the wrong profession. He should be writing fiction novels like Cornwell.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    The argument is not that Hofschroer invented the sources but that he distorted a lot to support his own agenda. The junior officers' reports? Are they available anywhere on the internet ?
    Yes Cornwell's plots are fictitious but the few Peninsula and India ones I've read seem to stick to historical fact.The Fuentes de Onoro one was fine and as I remember showed the various points of that battle in some detail.I have read the Spanish and French accounts and that battle was Wellington's worst mistake in his dispositions and could have been lost. I remember Cornwell making that clear.
    Is the Waterloo novel not well researched ? I read it years ago and noticed he got a French cavalry regiment at Quatre Bras wrong and he even answered my letter and admitted that.
    Last edited by Jihada; October 11, 2010 at 09:56 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jihada View Post
    The argument is not that Hofschroer invented the sources but that he distorted a lot to support his own agenda. The junior officers' reports? Are they available anywhere on the internet ?
    But even if that is true it only applies to a tiny fraction of the content of his books, and basically not much more than the two trivial issues of:

    a) Did Wellington Lie to Blucher about the dispositions of the Allied Army prior to the battle of Ligny.

    and

    b) Did the Prussian's have a significant impact in the defeat of the French at Waterloo. Or perhaps, more accurately. Was Wellington aware of the Prussian contribution towards his victory and did he deliberately downplay it in his dispatch in order to claim all the glory for himself, as it seems pretty obvious that the Prussians did have a significant impact on the result at Waterloo whether Wellington realised it or not.

    Those two issues are pretty unimportant unless you are a worshipper of Wellington, or happened to be dumb enough to write a book assuming his dispatch was accurate and thus have a personal need to defend your position or look like an idiot.

    The vast majority of the content of Hofschroer's books is about the actual campaign and battle with first hand accounts by people who were there taken from their regimental reports, letters and journals. As long as those records are accurate then I don't give a stuff about Wellington's reputation or his honesty.

    For what its worth, my personal view having read the evidence from both sides on the two issues listed is as follows:

    a) Did Wellington Lie to Blucher about the dispositions of the Allied Army prior to the battle of Ligny.

    Of course he did, and good on him for being so politically astute. A lesser man might have been stupid enough to tell the truth. In which case the Prussian may have avoided battle on the 15th and might even have withdrawn towards the Prussian border leaving him to face the entire French Army alone. There were also important political reasons why it was preferrable that the Prussian Army was not left unscathed whilst the Angle-Dutch army was reduced by the battle withn the French, even if it was ultimately victorous. Wellington understood those issues and made sure that they didn't arise.

    b) Was Wellington aware of the Prussian contribution towards his victory and deliberately downplay it in his dispatch in order to claim all the glory for himself.

    He certainly did. In fact, it seems that it was pretty much common knowledge amongst the senior staff of the army that he had. Why else did they try so hard to advise Sibourne not to try and model the end of the battle?

    Wellington was not just a general he was also an aspiring politician with one eye on the benefits that his victory would have on his future career, and for people like Somerset having a close friend on the way up guarantee's you a easy ride clinging to his coat tails. Wellington's dispatch wasn't intended to be an accurate history of the battle, rather it was an application for high officer and a place in history alongside Nelson.

    In short it was about as truthful as most peoples CV's.

    Does that diminish my opinion of Wellington as a general?

    Not in the slightest, in fact if anything I consider it adds to his reputation as a man who understood the way the world works and knew how to make things happen.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 10:24 AM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    If Hofschroer is proven to have fiddled some sources to support his arguments then it can be assumed he has done the same with some of the diaries etc that you mention,or at least omitted to mention any that contradict his account. To retrace accurately what happened was the intent of the Pflugk-Harttung inquiry which collected information from many Prussian regiments.
    I'm sure no one disputes that Wellington was seriously annoyed that Siborne included a large Prussian contingent but there are also questions on Siborne's honesty.Anyway I'll have to read what Glover has to say about it all. Lots of these sites around
    http://www.garethglovercollection.co...ofWaterloo.htm


    Nothing to do with that but nice site with photos here of battlefields and monuments today
    http://napoleon-monuments.eu/Napoleon1er/index_EN.htm
    Last edited by Jihada; October 11, 2010 at 10:25 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jihada View Post
    If Hofschroer is proven to have fiddled some sources to support his arguments then it can be assumed he has done the same with some of the diaries etc that you mention,or at least omitted to mention any that contradict his account.
    Well every historian does that, thats why its so important to cross-reference their information and look for corroboration from other sources.


    A sad testimony to the lack of respect the Belgium government has for its own countries history.

    I remember when I was active in the NCWG there was a campaign to try and persuade the Belgian government to allow a consortium of British people to purchase various battlefield locations in the hope of preserving them and at least stopping them falling down. But they weren't interested.

    One would have thought that even if they had no interest in their own history, simple greed would have made them realise that tey are literally sitting on a tourist gold mine with these locations. All they need to do is patch the damned things up and provide coffee and donoughts to make a killing.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 10:35 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    OMG,MacDonald finally captures Quatre Bras. That's terrible.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Wellington's Smallest Victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Jihada View Post
    OMG,MacDonald finally captures Quatre Bras. That's terrible.
    Thats not the worst example.

    When I last visited the area the farm of Mont St.Jean (which was the main hospital for the Allied army during and after the battle) was literally being allowed to fall down by its Belgian owner.

    La Haye Sainte was boarded up with ugly sheets of rotting chipboard to prevent any tourists getting anywhere near it. I remember thinking at the time what an idiot the owner must be. I mean I would gladly have paid just to walk through the gate and have a look round the house and courtyard. and this as a building in the prime location right in the middle of the battlefield. All you would need to do is tidy it up a bit put a few tables in the courtyard and sell cream tea's for £10 a time and you'd make a fortune.

    At Germioncourt Farm the scene of one of the Netherlands Armies most heroic actions of the campaign not only were we denied the chance to look round, we were actually attacked by two large dogs deployed by the farner to keep tourists away.


    In fact the only place we managed to get access to was Hougoumont, and then only after Ian Fletcher made a personal appeal to the owner, and quite honestly it was in a sorry state. Though probably better than it was after the battle.

    I have no idea if this is the result of the neglect of the Belgian government or just sheer stupidity by the owners of the buildings, but it seems that between them they are determine to complete the destruction of the battlefield they started by vandalising it to build a huge sand castle in the middle of it.
    Last edited by Didz; October 11, 2010 at 11:28 AM.

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