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Thread: Police forces

  1. #1
    Miles
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    Default Police forces

    I know you made all the units in FATW into "is_peasant", so they only count for half their manpower when it comes to "suppressing" unrest in your cities.
    I was just wondering if maybe it was possible to create some faction wide police units. Guys with only light armor and wielding a nightstick.
    Maybe make it so they need 2 turns to train and can only be done in your homelands, requiring highest level barracks (or possibly the highest lvl city government building you can get to, as well as the unbuilable palace for the unique cities).
    But quite cheap in upkeep, they are watchmen after all, and not soldiers.

    A unit for keeping order in the cities in your controlled territory, takes long to recruit and is really horrible in combat, capable of taking on peasants, but not much else. Maybe only available in smallish units, so make it even tougher to get a lot of them very quickly.
    Something to produce slowly in your cities far from the frontier, that are slowly growing and needs someone to smack the populace around the head when they are starting to get a bit too revolutionary.
    ( I mean, all the factions are monarchies, can't have some people running around and talking about republics and Liberté, égalité, fraternité, god only knows what something like that may lead to.



    The only ones lacking that special attribute (is_peasant) is Dunland warhounds and catapult, ballista, Mumakil and olog-hai. And of those, only the first is really of any use as a policing unit. Catapults and ballista just doesn't contain enough men and mumakil and olog-hai are too expensive in upkeep.
    Dunland warhours works pretty nicely tho, not very costly for such a big unit, and then add in that they give double "garrison bonus".


    Also, easterling warbands have spears, but not the spears attribute, so they are wielding spearlike swords, same goes for their horde brothers. And the gondor militia levy still have their full attack, unlike their Adunabar militia levy, which has it decreased, essentially making gondor militia levy better than gondor swordsmen levy.

  2. #2
    Aradan's Avatar Flame Imperishable
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    Default Re: Police forces

    The problem with a police unit is that it would be an exploit against the AI, because the AI wouldn't know how to use it; plus there is no source anywhere that confirms the existence of such a unit.

    The use of is_peasant will be reviewed anyway. Same goes for the spear attributes.

  3. #3
    Thangaror's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehcrum View Post

    ( I mean, all the factions are monarchies, can't have some people running around and talking about republics and Liberté, égalité, fraternité, god only knows what something like that may lead to.
    It leads here:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fMCTo-GQ2A

    Anyway, keeping up public order is so easy in FATW, I don't think there's need for a police unit. Put some militia or levies in a town, and it'll keep them quiet.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

    Middle-earth: Total War - Hérë Pelarcíryarwa - WIP Second Age mod


  4. #4
    Aradan's Avatar Flame Imperishable
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Hm, you find keeping order too easy? I guess we have to remedy that.

  5. #5
    StealthEvo's Avatar Falling Toward the Sky
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    Default Re: Police forces

    I have to agree. Often the middle provinces in many factions can be left completely devoid of troops. Especially Rk. But saying that I did run into my first rebel army near Dol Amroth!!!! (it wasn't empty) bunch of Gondor Swords and Militia with blacked out shields (blacklands merc style) I killed them and my general got Kinslayer I was amused but at the same time dying inside

  6. #6
    Stark1's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: Police forces

    I thought RK being peacefull was WAD. Fighting rebels and brigands in core provinces of Gondor doesn't seem very true to the lore.

  7. #7
    CountMRVHS's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Police forces

    I don't really mind that a faction's central homelands (esp. in the case of RK) are easy to control. Other factions have some troubles eventually (Rhun and Harad, IIRC) in their homelands, which seems to make sense.

    Even if I *could* leave towns like Linhir empty as RK, I never do, because I'm too paranoid that some rebels or sneaky Harad/Dunland types will waltz in if I'm not paying attention.

    And tbh, the idea of having to train lots of troops just to hold down unrest in my homelands - when those troops will never see battle - doesn't appeal to me, and doesn't seem to fit with factions like RK or Rohan. With factions like Harad, Rhun, Dunland or Adunabar, which comprise several distinct "groups" vying for power (not always in a nice way), on the other hand, you could justify always having to keep an eye on your towns' loyalty.

  8. #8
    Miles
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Quote Originally Posted by Stark1 View Post
    I thought RK being peacefull was WAD. Fighting rebels and brigands in core provinces of Gondor doesn't seem very true to the lore.
    I'm not taking about rebels and brigands in the countryside, those actually requires real soldiers to fight.

    I'm talking about criminality, rioters, drunkards and all those dregs of society that tends to cause trouble, no matter what country, what system or what culture.
    And unless there is some weird JRR Tolkien magic, there is bound to be problems of that sort in middle earth as well.
    And to "combat" these disruptive elements of society, soldiers are less than optimal, they are trained to fight an actual enemy, not running after drunkards and looters in alleyways. So ever since they started with cities larger than a farming community, there have been men trained to keep the peace and order.
    Men who knows the city, and knows the people there, and knows which ones are the troublemakers, so they know which one they are gonna give a beating even if there is no way to know for certain who the guilty party was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    The problem with a police unit is that it would be an exploit against the AI, because the AI wouldn't know how to use it; plus there is no source anywhere that confirms the existence of such a unit.

    The use of is_peasant will be reviewed anyway. Same goes for the spear attributes.
    Maybe change one of the "happy" buildinglines (banquethall and fountains) to a law building instead, the two buildingslines are pretty much identical as it is.

    And from this lawbuilding, maybe you get a small law bonus for the first lvl, a little more from the 2nd, plus the ability to recruit some weak and cheap militia (police/watchmen) and the 3rd lvl the same unit and law bonus plus maybe a small bonus either law, tax income (tax collectors now have police to back them up) or even public security (makes it harder for spies and assassins).


    Totally removing is_peasant would make it too easy I think.
    I just think it's kinda wrong that I keep building harad skirmishers and sending them to police my RK cities......


    Couldn't the AI be "balanced" in using them, or not using them, by balancing their cost vs stats? Essentially making them a cheap militia unit, meaning the AI will keep them at home and send out their better units? The AI seems to keep their low-grade units at home for this reason, and have some kind of sense that units have upkeep.
    Besides, AI seems to have an easier time dealing with unrest anyways.
    Last edited by Nehcrum; October 06, 2010 at 09:52 AM.

  9. #9
    Thangaror's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    Hm, you find keeping order too easy? I guess we have to remedy that.
    Well, it is 'ok' in the homelands. A family member or a unit of levies is enough to keep a settlement from rioting. Actually, the RK settlements are even "happy" despite very high taxes.

    In conquered territory it needs more troops of course. But since newly conquered towns are usually frontline towns you'll have a reasonable force inside anyway, and also riot dies down after some turns

    In general I think that Nehcrum is right with his arguments concerning drunkards and stuff. Perhaps there's no need of a police unit in smaller towns, but I think there's need for a "Sherrif", a Judge or sth similar. Even without drunkards and rowdies, there's always an argument at hand when men live together. Thus there's need of an authorized person who can judge upon this matter, who knows the laws and customs (the Governor has to important things to do and can't mess with commoners' pesky argy-bargy everyday). This could be symbolized by a building that increases law in the same amount as a non-peasant unit would.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

    Middle-earth: Total War - Hérë Pelarcíryarwa - WIP Second Age mod


  10. #10
    CountMRVHS's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Yes, but don't those buildings/mechanics currently exist, in the form of law bonuses to the homelands and other things?

    You can think of the "core" building in a settlement as essentially performing this function - that's what the description indicates, after all.

    As for an actual unit dedicated to policing, I think I'd rather not deal with the micromanaging, and my assumption (though I'm not sure) is that the AI wouldn't be able to handle it at all.

  11. #11
    StealthEvo's Avatar Falling Toward the Sky
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    Default Re: Police forces

    They would. Just you'd see them in the Armies

  12. #12
    Stark1's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMRVHS View Post
    Yes, but don't those buildings/mechanics currently exist, in the form of law bonuses to the homelands and other things?

    You can think of the "core" building in a settlement as essentially performing this function - that's what the description indicates, after all.

    As for an actual unit dedicated to policing, I think I'd rather not deal with the micromanaging, and my assumption (though I'm not sure) is that the AI wouldn't be able to handle it at all.
    I completely agree with this. Some sort of law enforcement structure must exist in ME, but there is no reason to feature them explicitly. Building cards already imply their existance, and I think they wouldn't add anything except micromanagement to the game. And of course another unit AI can't use effectively (like those settler wains).

  13. #13
    Thangaror's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Well, there's that "Feasting Hall" or what. Why not change it to a "police department" thingy.
    I would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end.

    Middle-earth: Total War - Hérë Pelarcíryarwa - WIP Second Age mod


  14. #14
    Aradan's Avatar Flame Imperishable
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Because it makes much more sense to have a tavern/inn in ME than a police department.

  15. #15
    StealthEvo's Avatar Falling Toward the Sky
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Plus you potentially loose the Inn/Taverns Ancs such as Harpers, fools and what not.

  16. #16
    Miles
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    Default Re: Police forces

    Quote Originally Posted by Aradan View Post
    Because it makes much more sense to have a tavern/inn in ME than a police department.
    So change the fountain instead of the tavern, or better yet, smack the two together, since they are basically the same as it is, same costs, same buildtime, same effects.
    Only differs in ancs and traits they give.

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthEvo View Post
    Plus you potentially loose the Inn/Taverns Ancs such as Harpers, fools and what not.
    That shouldn't be much of a problem, just change them around a bit, so they are given by for example the new combined tavern/fountain, or just replace them with law-type ancs, like judge, magistrate, watchman, and so on.

  17. #17
    Aradan's Avatar Flame Imperishable
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    Default Re: Police forces

    It would be much easier for us to just expand the despotic law building (the one that Rhun and Harad have) to be available to all factions. But I am not sure yet another law building is necessary, we have plenty already. As for merging gardens with police, I don't quite like it, and it doesn't make sense. Having the law buildings divided into gardens/chopping blocks gives a nice diversification that's more in the spirit of Tolkien's writings than a police department. Plus, we have hit the limit of buildings in a settlement (24, any more and they are inaccessible on the settlements' "city"panel) and we have to be really careful about what we add.

    Also, "just change it" is a lot easier said than done. Changing one single building tree requires anywhere from 3 to 48 new images, names and descriptions, plus changing of all relevant ancs and traits and anything else in the code or text that is possible attached to a building.

    We might incorporate some text to that effect (the peace-keeping) in the government buildings though.

  18. #18
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Definitely banned
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    Default Re: Police forces

    But why do the units have the is_peasant trait at all?

  19. #19
    Aradan's Avatar Flame Imperishable
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    Default Re: Police forces

    To make keeping order a bit more difficult; it is already quite easy with all the buildings.

  20. #20
    Signifer
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    Default Re: Police forces

    The last time I used dog units was RTW vanilla. I seem to recall from that experience that dog units made crappy garrisons because only the human trainers counted toward the garrison number, and the dogs counted for nothing. Is that not the case here, does the dunlandish war hound unit count as 214 solders for garrison duty?

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