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Thread: decline

  1. #1
    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default decline

    In one of my early assignments I ranged the fall of the west from 408 to 476, partly because of Constantine's rebellion and the subsequent crossing of the Rhine by the Vandals and Sueves. Do you guys concur or disagree?
    The Duke of Dunwich and surrounding fiefdom

    For any who are interested by my FF on occurrences in Rhun and beyond; I have begun a new project (not because the old one is finished, just opening more room for ideas) about one of the minor characters, Rankal. It is in the Third Age AAR index and here is the link http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376994

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    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: decline

    I think it began in 454 - capable generals like Constantius III (not the ursurper - this is the guy who killed constantine III) and Flavius Aetius were there to uphold it. I have a thread I'll link you to it.

  3. #3

    Default Re: decline

    Quote Originally Posted by sirfiggin View Post
    In one of my early assignments I ranged the fall of the west from 408 to 476, partly because of Constantine's rebellion and the subsequent crossing of the Rhine by the Vandals and Sueves. Do you guys concur or disagree?

    Why do you think that sirfiggin? Not that I disagree but the empire west had many rebellions and crossing of the Rhine of peoples through the previous centuries. Maybe elaborate on your good topic for this era

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  4. #4

    Default Re: decline

    Well there are 2 words with rather different meanings here?
    Topic reads "decline" and the post uses "fall". So what is actually meant?
    For "decline" I would use a much larger timeframe and The actual "fall" I´d set later than suggested, around 450s.

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    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: decline

    hooray, I started a discussion the reason I wrote that was because for the assignment the fall of the western empire was one of the many dates I had to list, it was just the one that I felt was too vague a concept to fix on a calendar. And strictly speaking after the Rhine crossing the empire never fully recovered, at least territorially. And after the visigoths sacked Rome, it was never in a position to make good any of those losses.
    The Duke of Dunwich and surrounding fiefdom

    For any who are interested by my FF on occurrences in Rhun and beyond; I have begun a new project (not because the old one is finished, just opening more room for ideas) about one of the minor characters, Rankal. It is in the Third Age AAR index and here is the link http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376994

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    Default Re: decline

    Except in the 430s,440s, and 450s when they had a worthwhile army...

  7. #7

    Default Re: decline

    Quote Originally Posted by sirfiggin View Post
    hooray, I started a discussion
    Not yet at least as far as I´m concerned.

    I´d expect a better "basis", than just a few sentences, something thats more clearly showing the reasons for your choice, maybe some "lights" on different positions and why you didnt choose them.
    Then I might jump eagerly into a discussion

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    Default Re: decline

    The Roman Empire didn't truly begin spiralling into oblivion until Ricimer became Generalissimo. He was not capable and wasted away all that Aetius had worked hard to take back. He only focused on italy and his army was entirely unstable foederati troops. This process began in 461 with the death of majoran - a man who aetius saw as a capable general and later he became emperor in 457 after destryoing the remainder of Aetius' compatriots' power base with the deposition of Avitus. Aetius knew ricimer was corrupt and that's why he fired him. Ricimer wanted control. Ricimer gave away the empire. Sad Face .

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    sirfiggin's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: decline

    never knew that before, Flavius
    The Duke of Dunwich and surrounding fiefdom

    For any who are interested by my FF on occurrences in Rhun and beyond; I have begun a new project (not because the old one is finished, just opening more room for ideas) about one of the minor characters, Rankal. It is in the Third Age AAR index and here is the link http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=376994

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    Default Re: decline

    well everone lears something new every day. the roman empire was ina aslow decline until 461 when things really got out of hand.

  11. #11
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: decline

    Most historians conclude the end of the western roman empire or the final nail in the coffin was the failed invasion of North Africa in the 450s. Although it last until 476 it, technically, it was just shell of its formal self. I cant name a strong western emperor post 450.

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    Default Re: decline

    actually the north africa invasion happened in 468. Aetius prepared one in 440 but the east failed to bring it's navy because of attila.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: decline

    Thats right thanks mate.

    Still that was the nail in the coffin. It sealed the western empires fate. Drained the west and the east of all resources and manpower.

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    Default Re: decline

    The east not really - they weren't affected and the real affect on the military was the deaths of Aetius and Avitus.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: decline

    The east was safe because most of their territory lay on the other side of the Bosphorus, including Egypt the most productive region. But they were drained finaincially and militarily to support the failed invasion. Thats not to say they were devastated and could be destroyed by an invasion.Just that they wouldnt be able to help the west out anymore.

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    Default Re: decline

    Exactly - but they proved to be pretty resilient as they were able to send a massive fleet for aetius even though they were paying 700 pounds of gold to the huns each year...

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