Exactly what is a teenagers Role in Society?

[Reidy]

imo the role of a teenager is to slouch around in hoodied gangs intimidating OAPs and little children.

[Tom Paine]

Precisely. The only really possibly sensible evaluation is coursework, something I personally am in favour of, when marked by teachers of the school and externally moderated.

[sephodwyrm]

Dude, squeakus, that would be so good.

You can't imagine how grades 11 and 12 were like to me (they are levels JC1 and JC2 in Singapore).

Those 2 years are nothing but A level preparation.
I failed many exams.
And somehow I can still pass A levels...

If they looked at my coursework I would have never been accepted.

[Tom Paine]

Coursework is a better indicator of ability than exams. They test your ability to work to a deadline, your organisational skills, and practical stuff like research ability depending on the subject. In fact they also test your knowledge et al. The only thing they don't test is your ability to take tests.

[Spiff]

Coursework is a better indicator of ability than exams. They test your ability to work to a deadline, your organisational skills, and practical stuff like research ability depending on the subject. In fact they also test your knowledge et al. The only thing they don't test is your ability to take tests.

Yes but its also a lot easier to cheat.. for example last year i got my brother to write a poem for me as part of my creative writing portfolio for Advanced Higher English (scottish 6th year studies for 18 year olds). I mentioned multiple choice as i had a criminal law exam last tuesday fllowing this scheme, negative marking used to avoid people getting lucky. Most sciences have a large amount of multiple choice and basic knowledge questions, technique doesnt enter into them either. English and History when i did them had large amounts of coursework to do too, and the final exam depended (in english anyway) on knowing the texts given before hand, technique alone would get you basicaly no where

[Tom Paine]

However now, in English, reliance on knowledge of the text is void; you get given a copy of the text in the exam, and that is what you can use, its a matter of technique alone.
And having done mocks for scienes last week on purely old questions, there were no multiple-choice questions, so that breaks that argument.
Fiunally cheating on courseworjk shows initiative :wink:, but more to the point its also possible to cheat on an exam, especially with nonvigilant invigilators.

[Darth Wong]

A well-designed exam is an excellent tool for student evaluation. Good exams are largely composed of what high school teachers usually refer to as "word problems", which require an analytical solution or short essay rather than a mere multiple-choice selection or one-word answer. For example, a good engineering exam question would show you a diagram of a cantilever structure and ask you whether it is strong enough to support its specified load requirement, given the material specs. The same kind of question in a take-home assignment leaves open the possibility of groupwork and cheating.

[Spiff]

However now, in English, reliance on knowledge of the text is void; you get given a copy of the text in the exam, and that is what you can use, its a matter of technique alone.
And having done mocks for scienes last week on purely old questions, there were no multiple-choice questions, so that breaks that argument.
Fiunally cheating on courseworjk shows initiative :wink:, but more to the point its also possible to cheat on an exam, especially with nonvigilant invigilators.

lol cant believe you get the text in the exam.. bloody England..
Multiple choice was always a part of our science exams, and my girlfriend is doing that even now on her Biology course in Edinburgh uni, and its been a 1/3 of my Law exams. Where it hasnt we've certainly been allowed no materials in the exam. You should consider moving North if you want what seems to be a more appropriate education.

and yea i thought getting my bro with his degree in english and pholosophy to write a poem for me to use did take quite a bit of initiative really..

[Darth Wong]

Actually, a good open-book exam is harder than a closed-book exam because the questions are generally of a sort that cannot be solved by simply looking them up in the book. A good open-book exam generally requires real understanding of the subject matter, and does not rely on memory-work.

[Spiff]

no doubt, it just seems a strange concept to me, im sure both can be made to be equaly hard in reality. I'd have thought the fact that you know you wont have acces to the book in the exam would drive you harder to make sure you know the book inside out before hand anyway

[sabaku_no_gaara]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned economy yet.

Teenagers are an important target group, they have the money and are easely convinced to spend it and boosting the economy. just imagine how much money companies would lose if teenagers would one day stop spending all their money on the latest K swiss, Nike, bling bling, gadgets, etc....

[Darth Wong]

no doubt, it just seems a strange concept to me, im sure both can be made to be equaly hard in reality. I'd have thought the fact that you know you wont have acces to the book in the exam would drive you harder to make sure you know the book inside out before hand anyway

You're missing the point; in a truly difficult exam, memorizing the book won't help you. Do you think a doctor or an engineer needs to be able to memorize things as his primary skill? It's about comprehension, not memorization. A good open-book exam is superior because it more closely approximates the real world. In a real-world situation, you can grab all of the books and calculators you want; does that mean a real-world job is always guaranteed to be easy?

[Spiff]

You're missing the point; in a truly difficult exam, memorizing the book won't help you. Do you think a doctor or an engineer needs to be able to memorize things as his primary skill? It's about comprehension, not memorization. A good open-book exam is superior because it more closely approximates the real world. In a real-world situation, you can grab all of the books and calculators you want; does that mean a real-world job is always guaranteed to be easy?

I think you have missed the point..

We were talking about teenagers preparing for higher education, not someone taking their final exam of a medical degree. I argue that ability to commit information to memory and present it on a page in a structured way that answers the question is an important skill aside from the knowledge you have learnt, and will help provide a stepping stone to a higher education

[Darth Wong]

I think you have missed the point..

We were talking about teenagers preparing for higher education, not someone taking their final exam of a medical degree. I argue that ability to commit information to memory and present it on a page in a structured way that answers the question is an important skill aside from the knowledge you have learnt, and will help provide a stepping stone to a higher education

Exactly why should teenagers preparing for a higher education be any different? Rote memorization remains a skill for a filing cabinet, not an intellectual.

[Lord Tomyris]

Coursework is a better indicator of ability than exams. They test your ability to work to a deadline, your organisational skills, and practical stuff like research ability depending on the subject. In fact they also test your knowledge et al. The only thing they don't test is your ability to take tests.

The irritating thing about coursework at my school is this:

Everyone has the same deadline for the coursework. I hand mine in; I get it back with full marks. My friend gets his back, with D. The teacher allows him to change his and resubmit it. He gets a C. Once again, he is allowed to resubmit it to help him get a higher grade. All the time downplaying my achievement the first time round!

[Tom Paine]

That is against the board rules, and shouldn't happen, however.

[Cadmium77]

Adolescence is really about fitting into the adult society. School, particularly high school does a poor job at this. In fact it does a terrible job precisely because it isolates teen agers and allows them to project their own peer group demands to the fore rather than forcing adolescents to come to terms with the adult world. Really education should be entirely revamped to this goal. There's something very wrong with going to school for 12 years at great cost to society then graduating and finding out that you don't have a single marketable skill. What was it all for? Were they just warehousing you to keep you out of the way?

You could easily compress all the necessary material for grades 10 11 and 12 into 6 months then get people into a more job oriented training then the present weird liberal education which is more about Pavlovian programming than it is about giving people necessary skillsets. You should be able to get rid of the very expensive physical plant of the schools and turn everyone over to internet education services of teh highest quality. Education as a MMORPG as it were...where you work your way up the ranking of skills like in BF2.

[Spiff]

Exactly why should teenagers preparing for a higher education be any different? Rote memorization remains a skill for a filing cabinet, not an intellectual.

Because if you cant memorise things you wont be any good as a professional. This has to be proven before you start higher education, at which point it is taken for granted.

Do you think someone performing surgery has time to double check something from a book? No, they are assumed to have memorised the information, or else their professional competence will be in question.

Im not talking about not using computerised retrieval, clearly, just that there has to be some level of assesment to distinguish individuals as worthy or higher education and those who are not. Sub par memory is not a desirable characteristic for anyone hoping to do well in an exam, and moreso it is extremely foolish to rely on computers as a source of information, youre far better to know things for yourself.

But am i saying it is unrealistic to expect a qualified doctor to reproduce text verbatim? Perhaps so yes. Should they have to prove that they can do it if they need to while attaining their qualification? yes, probably, assesment of skill needs to be thorough in my opinion

[Lord Tomyris]

That is against the board rules, and shouldn't happen, however.

Ugh indeed, I certainly have my differences with that 'teacher'.

[Darth Wong]

Because if you cant memorise things you wont be any good as a professional. This has to be proven before you start higher education, at which point it is taken for granted.

Do you think someone performing surgery has time to double check something from a book? No, they are assumed to have memorised the information, or else their professional competence will be in question.

So? If your memory is so abysmally poor that you can't function as a professional, you wouldn't be able to handle a realistic exam either. The time it takes to look things up costs you in a decent open-book exam, just as it would cost you in real-life. But an exam specifically designed to test memory itself is a waste of time. And yes, a real doctor may in fact look something up rather than going entirely by memory.

Im not talking about not using computerised retrieval, clearly, just that there has to be some level of assesment to distinguish individuals as worthy or higher education and those who are not. Sub par memory is not a desirable characteristic for anyone hoping to do well in an exam, and moreso it is extremely foolish to rely on computers as a source of information, youre far better to know things for yourself.

Subpar memory would handicap you in realistic exam questions as well, but only insofar as it slows you down. And I don't know where you got your notions of what a real professional is like, but real professionals are not afraid to look something up if they need to use it. Lawyers, for example, have underlings whose entire job is to look things up. Even if you think you remember it, it's good to double-check and make sure unless you are so certain that you are willing to risk someone's life on that basis.

But am i saying it is unrealistic to expect a qualified doctor to reproduce text verbatim? Perhaps so yes. Should they have to prove that they can do it if they need to while attaining their qualification? yes, probably, assesment of skill needs to be thorough in my opinion

No, they shouldn't. Rote memorization of text is a worthless skill.