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Thread: The underestimated Hoplite

  1. #1

    Default The underestimated Hoplite

    We all know some basic rules from the very beginning of playing RTW. One of this rules is without doubt "Whoever attacks the phalanx from the front will die" and the answer to this problem is always the same: pin and flank the phalanx with melee (sword) fighters or rush some cavalry from the back. Up to here, everything is fine.

    But now this wisdom has obviously led to some misconceptions regarding the abilities of the Greek hoplite (and his younger brother, the Macedonian pikeman) in close quarters combat. Of course it is correct that the phalanx is slow, has its business end to only one direction at a time, leaving the other directions virtually helpless and is not very agile - ever tried to turn a phalanx into the direction of a suddenly flanking unit in time? You know what I mean. So leading a Greek army into battle would mostly look the same: ram your solid phalanx into the enemy battle line, with missile troops peppering them from behind and your cavalry doing some harrassing. If the enemy will root, itīs a good day. If the enemy manages to flank you, itīs probably a bad day. And you never would think about flanking the enemy battle line with Hoplites, right?

    Of course you may have tried, and sometimes have had success. But then you found that most of the time it takes too long to move the slow phalanx at the side, around the enemy and into his flank. Too much time, so the enemy can well react. Stupid slow moving phalanx, isnīt it?

    Now we should learn that all this applies to the phalanx very well, but not to the Hoplite himself. A hoplite CAN run (you probably already wondered why those funny Greeks invented the Olympic Games if they could not even run) and a hoplite HAS a sword dangling at his belt ready to be used and a hoplite so CAN engage in close combat. What does this mean? A hoplite can flank enemy units and slaughter them with the sword. Just make it real! To the lower left of the screen, there is this funny button "special ability: phalanx" which is turned on by standard setup. Click it, and you will notice your hoplites rise their spears. NOW they are faster, they can run, and they can maneuver around the enemy battle line smooth. This was step one. Step two is just hold down "Alt" and double-rightclick on the enemy to use the "alternative melee weapon" which is the sword. You will see the nice picture of hoplites charging into the enemy flank/back with swords ahead, slaughtering the infidels.

    Now you probably would say "but the Greeks are not sword fighters, they will not do well in this role". So letīs compare the stats for melee weapons (attack/charge bonus) with a people you would tell are sword fighters: the Romans.

    Melee weapon (sword) attack/charge values:

    Hastati and Principes: 7/2
    Hoplites: 5/2 (same for Macedonian Phalanx Pikemen)
    Armored Hoplites: 7/3 (same for Macedonian Royal Pikemen)

    We notice that ArmHoplites give just an as good sword fighter as Principes. Stunning, isnīt it? Of course normal Hoplites are not superior sword fighters (same values as Heavy Peltasts) but are useful for flanking though. However, Militia Hoplites donīt fit the bill. Use them as phalanx, not as sword fighters. You will produce Hoplites early in the game, which gives you first ability to conduct close combat in needy situations. Of course try to get armored Hoplites as soon as possible, because they are the class of sword fighters you need to compare with real enemies. Now letīs have a look at the sword fighting Spartans:

    Spartan Hoplite: 16/4
    Legionary Cohort: 9/4
    Praetorian Cohort: 12/4

    We notice that the Spartans even outclass post-Marian Roman units. Awesome! Use this to your advantage! Flanking Spartans will rout enemy units quickly.

    Now of course a disclaimer: this will not revolutionize Greek warfare. Of course, your main instrument will be the solid phalanx battle line. But now behind this battle line keep some hoplite units in non-phalanx mode ready to either flank the enemy with the sword or protect the own flanks, then switching to phalanx mode. It does not turn your world by 180° but it adds an offensive element. And this is what I want to express.

    Another disclaimer: you could say "at the time I can build armored Hoplites in good numbers, I have already won". Well, you donīt need good numbers. Your main battle line can very well consist of "second rank" hoplites, as long as the few offensive units in the back are good ones.

    Now, whatīs your opinion?

  2. #2

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    Hm, sounds very nice, but I remember that I made a few tests with hoplites.
    One time, I made a combat just between a praetorian unit and spartan hoplites. The Romans were commanded by me, the AI took the Greeks. I attacked the front of the phalanx without throwing spears before charging. And I won. It was very, very disappointing (I wanted the Greeks to win, of course).

    The other test were combats between hoplites, armoured hoplites and spartan hoplites against hastati and principes (always 1 vs 1). This time I played the greeks, because I wanted to attack in no-phalanx-formation. Well, they took the swords, ran and chaaaarged... and died.

    I don't know, why the Romans won (even if I wanted them to loose! ), but since then I never again tried to decide a battle with charging hoplites. Maybe I had bad luck, but four times?

    What do the others say?

    Greetings, Raldaf!

  3. #3
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    Good post Kraut, but in your comparisions of the hoplites and Romans, you fail to take account of the Roman's superior morale, and units' other attributes (e.g. hardy, disciplined), which would have an effect on the outcome of a battle.

    It is certainly a strategy that could be used, but I would argue only in desperation or at the start of the game when the Greeks have no cavalry, even flanking charge by Greek Militia cavalry would probably be more effective than one by hoplites.

    "Hammer and anvil" tactics still rock for Greek factions.



  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamus
    Good post Kraut, but in your comparisions of the hoplites and Romans, you fail to take account of the Roman's superior morale, and units' other attributes (e.g. hardy, disciplined), which would have an effect on the outcome of a battle.
    I admit I missed this point, thank you for raising this! Of course the higher morale levels of Romans will make them fight better.

    It is certainly a strategy that could be used, but I would argue only in desperation or at the start of the game
    Sure you are right! It was not meant to create a fully new approach, but only to point out widely unused possibilities.

    even flanking charge by Greek Militia cavalry would probably be more effective than one by hoplites.
    I have to say that my few Greek cavalry units normally are 100% busy with hunting skirmishers and screening off enemy cav during my battles, so I often lacked any possibility to do flanks with cav until late in the battle - so I discovered the option of quickly flanking with hoplites out of desperation.

    "Hammer and anvil" tactics still rock for Greek factions
    Again you are right. As I mentioned at the end of my post, the Phaanx still rules Greek battlefield tactics. The flanking swordman is only an - letīs say - additional tactical feature. However I found it quite useful sometimes and felt I should share it. I posted in the basics section intentionally because obviously RTW cracks do not need such very basic advise, but maybe some recruit will find it helpful.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Raldaf
    Hm, sounds very nice, but I remember that I made a few tests with hoplites.
    One time, I made a combat just between a praetorian unit and spartan hoplites. The Romans were commanded by me, the AI took the Greeks. I attacked the front of the phalanx without throwing spears before charging. And I won. It was very, very disappointing (I wanted the Greeks to win, of course).

    The other test were combats between hoplites, armoured hoplites and spartan hoplites against hastati and principes (always 1 vs 1). This time I played the greeks, because I wanted to attack in no-phalanx-formation. Well, they took the swords, ran and chaaaarged... and died.

    I don't know, why the Romans won (even if I wanted them to loose! ), but since then I never again tried to decide a battle with charging hoplites. Maybe I had bad luck, but four times?

    What do the others say?

    Greetings, Raldaf!
    Remember that in real life the Romans didn't defeat the Macedonians and Seleucids by advanced tactics and elite cavalry, but by being stubborn, and trying to wage battle on rough terrain.

    One of the reasons why the Romans abandoned the hoplite tactics in the early Republic is that the terrain in Italy was too rough for the hoplites to remain in close order. RTW is very unrealistic at that point. The phalanx can hold their close order even in the roughest terrain, but in real life this was really hard and required very much training. A classic example of Macedonian phalanx fighting Roman legions was the Battle of Pydna. The Macedonian king choose to fight on flat ground, a wise choice to make his hammer-and-anvil work (although he had no superior cavalry, both Romans and Macedonians had 4000 horsemen) and more important, to keep the phalanx in close order. The Romans managed to push the phalanx back into the hills were the line lost its cohesion. The phalanx was beaten and the Romans had proven that the legions instead of the phalanx had the future.

    But were the Roman soldiers supermen? No. They were good swordfighters and had quite good equipment, but the same goes for the Macedonian phalangites. Remember that in 168 BC, the Roman army wasn't a professional army yet, while many Macedonian soldiers were professionals. What made the Romans win the battle? Like I already said, the ability to fight on uneven terrain. They also had a very good discipline and organisation, enabling them to bring reserve troops forward and let the tired troops retreat.

    The Roman troops are overpowered in RTW, just like the chariots and desert axemen (I'm talking about Vanilla). During my Macedonian conquest of Italy I besieged Capua. One group of hastati guarded the walls, so I thought it would be a piece of cake to defeat those unexperienced boys. Most of my phalanx men were veterans who'd fought their way into Greece, Illyria and Italy, and had one or two silver chevrons. So I was shocked when I saw those 80 hastati inflicting heavy defeats on my two groups of pikemen (not the really cheap ones but the better). So Roman infantry is much better with swords than phalangites, in both Vanilla and mods.

    Is it wrong to give the Romans such an advantage? No. RTW is unrealistic as hell if it comes to formations. Every barbarian commander would've dreamed to control every unit on the battlefield, giving the possibility to make complicated manoeuvres, instead of charging with the full force. In RTW, the Romans aren't better organised as the barbarians and hellenistic factions, so they need a good advantage over the other troops to encourage them conquering more. It's a bit annoying when you fought your way west with the Parthians and you see the Romans doing nothing outside of Italy in the 100 years of the campaign.
    Last edited by Marcus Scaurus; December 09, 2005 at 09:20 AM.
    In patronicum sub Tacticalwithdrawal
    Brother of Rosacrux redux and Polemides

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kraut
    We all know some basic rules from the very beginning of playing RTW. One of this rules is without doubt "Whoever attacks the phalanx from the front will die" and the answer to this problem is always the same: pin and flank the phalanx with melee (sword) fighters or rush some cavalry from the back. Up to here, everything is fine.

    But now this wisdom has obviously led to some misconceptions regarding the abilities of the Greek hoplite (and his younger brother, the Macedonian pikeman) in close quarters combat. Of course it is correct that the phalanx is slow, has its business end to only one direction at a time, leaving the other directions virtually helpless and is not very agile - ever tried to turn a phalanx into the direction of a suddenly flanking unit in time? You know what I mean. So leading a Greek army into battle would mostly look the same: ram your solid phalanx into the enemy battle line, with missile troops peppering them from behind and your cavalry doing some harrassing. If the enemy will root, itīs a good day. If the enemy manages to flank you, itīs probably a bad day. And you never would think about flanking the enemy battle line with Hoplites, right?

    Of course you may have tried, and sometimes have had success. But then you found that most of the time it takes too long to move the slow phalanx at the side, around the enemy and into his flank. Too much time, so the enemy can well react. Stupid slow moving phalanx, isnīt it?

    Now we should learn that all this applies to the phalanx very well, but not to the Hoplite himself. A hoplite CAN run (you probably already wondered why those funny Greeks invented the Olympic Games if they could not even run) and a hoplite HAS a sword dangling at his belt ready to be used and a hoplite so CAN engage in close combat. What does this mean? A hoplite can flank enemy units and slaughter them with the sword. Just make it real! To the lower left of the screen, there is this funny button "special ability: phalanx" which is turned on by standard setup. Click it, and you will notice your hoplites rise their spears. NOW they are faster, they can run, and they can maneuver around the enemy battle line smooth. This was step one. Step two is just hold down "Alt" and double-rightclick on the enemy to use the "alternative melee weapon" which is the sword. You will see the nice picture of hoplites charging into the enemy flank/back with swords ahead, slaughtering the infidels.

    Now you probably would say "but the Greeks are not sword fighters, they will not do well in this role". So letīs compare the stats for melee weapons (attack/charge bonus) with a people you would tell are sword fighters: the Romans.

    Melee weapon (sword) attack/charge values:

    Hastati and Principes: 7/2
    Hoplites: 5/2 (same for Macedonian Phalanx Pikemen)
    Armored Hoplites: 7/3 (same for Macedonian Royal Pikemen)

    We notice that ArmHoplites give just an as good sword fighter as Principes. Stunning, isnīt it? Of course normal Hoplites are not superior sword fighters (same values as Heavy Peltasts) but are useful for flanking though. However, Militia Hoplites donīt fit the bill. Use them as phalanx, not as sword fighters. You will produce Hoplites early in the game, which gives you first ability to conduct close combat in needy situations. Of course try to get armored Hoplites as soon as possible, because they are the class of sword fighters you need to compare with real enemies. Now letīs have a look at the sword fighting Spartans:

    Spartan Hoplite: 16/4
    Legionary Cohort: 9/4
    Praetorian Cohort: 12/4

    We notice that the Spartans even outclass post-Marian Roman units. Awesome! Use this to your advantage! Flanking Spartans will rout enemy units quickly.

    Now of course a disclaimer: this will not revolutionize Greek warfare. Of course, your main instrument will be the solid phalanx battle line. But now behind this battle line keep some hoplite units in non-phalanx mode ready to either flank the enemy with the sword or protect the own flanks, then switching to phalanx mode. It does not turn your world by 180° but it adds an offensive element. And this is what I want to express.

    Another disclaimer: you could say "at the time I can build armored Hoplites in good numbers, I have already won". Well, you donīt need good numbers. Your main battle line can very well consist of "second rank" hoplites, as long as the few offensive units in the back are good ones.

    Now, whatīs your opinion?
    Yes, yes, Yes! I love playing Greek, once I can train armored hoplites its all over. For the rest of the world! And then to get spartan hoplites, oh well its just mass death then. The AI (Rome) will never produce enough of the best cohort (the only unit that can stop you) in one army to put up much of a fight.

  7. #7

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    chessk,

    as you seem to enjoy playing as Greek cities, have you already tried the XGM (eXtended Greek Mod)? It gives some focus on the hellenic factions without editing the game too much. For those who favour the Greek Cities, it is definitely worth a try!

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