The Marathon - origins of

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

Sorry for any that already knew this, but i didn't

I always believed the story that the marathon was inspired by the Athenian runner running to Sparta to ask for help, running back to athens to give the reply, running from athens to marathon (where the Athenian army was dug in) to tell them what had happened, and then running back to Athens with news of the victory (and dropping dead).

Now I've just discovered that the above story (although based on truth, the guy apparently didn't drop dead) wasn't the inspiration, the inspiration was even more amazing.....

The Athenian army were dug in at marathon blocking Persian access to the 2 passes off the plain, everyone knew the Spartans were at last on the way so the persians had to do something. So in secret they started to embark their cavalry (which was their one true battle winner against the phalanx) to sail to athens and capture it with the help of traitors while the Athenian army was 26 miles away at marathon. To cover this move they advanced their infantry.

The Athenians discovered what was going on from Ionian spies and made the decision to attack. This was a seriously brave move, they were outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1, and every greek army that had fought the Persians in the last 50 years had been beaten. Anyway, they advanced onto the plain and charged the persians. At that point the basic fact of heavily armed and armoured infantry (the Athenians) charging into lightly armoured infantry (the Persians) won the day. The persian infantry were massacred with only the best troops in the centre delaying the inevitable. However, the stand of the Persian Centre also allowed the ships to escape, only 7 were captured by the Athenians. (195 losses to 6500+ isn't too shabby a result even for RTW :laughing: )

and now the amazing part, it was about 10 in the morning, the Athenians had just won a fantastic victory when looking back towards Athens they saw signals being made from the mountains to the sea. Realising that Athens was unprotected and that the Persian cavalry was on its way, the Athenian army promptly turned round and marched the 26 miles back to Athens in about 5-6 hours arriving mid afternoon just in time to be in position as the Persian fleet arrived. The Persians therefore withdrew and athens was saved.

So, if any of you run marathons think of this, the original marathon runners -

- wore/carried about 70-100 pounds of armour and weapons
- had just fought a battle
- and still completed it in about 6 hours

try that for size when you run your next marathon!

[Boudicca]

Well..I shall have to run my next Marathon faster then....I usually take about 4:30-4:45....
In fact I don't carry that much weight then...

This is very motivating. Will try to remember the greeks next time I run...

[Rosacrux redux]

LOL

Not too shabby a story, but this goes actually quite differently. The inspiration for the marathon was not the fast-paced walk of the whole army back to Athens (which is also part of the story), but the story of a single man, the messenger Pheidipides (Φειδιπίδης). This guy - if I am not mistaken, the same that went to Sparta to ask for help - right after the defeat of the Persians - run the whole distance in 1/3 of the time it took the rest of the army to come, to announce to the Athenians that they have won. The move, rationalized, can be attributed to the fact that this was a long march for the army and they didn't know if they make it on time - the Persian fleet was underway and the Athenians had to know that their army was victorious, so the traitors didn't get a chance to convince the Demos to surrender.

Tradition has it that Pheidipides, exhausted by the long run, managed to say only a single word before dropping dead in the feet of his fellowcountrymen: Nenikikamen (Νενικήκαμεν - we have won).

After that, the citizen ditched the traitors and prepared for battle, but their own hoplites came back before the Persians anyway, and when the latter saw the full might of the city waiting for them ready for (another) battle, they just took a hike.

That's the story of the inspiration behind the marathon, dear Papa and Master!

[almeja]

Since I am Greek myself I took pride in this thread and decided to add a little more food for thought;

the Athenians and their 700 Thespian allies, apart from having won a battle and carrying armour, completed their return run home with none of our modern "nike-air" etc shoes, just plain sandals (if at all). And of course there were no hard-surface roads to traverse, just the bushlands and (generally) arid landscape of Attica.

I don't know how they did it, honestly. Do I carry these people's genes?

[almeja]

LOL

Not too shabby a story, but this goes actually quite differently. The inspiration for the marathon was not the fast-paced walk of the whole army back to Athens (which is also part of the story), but the story of a single man, the messenger Pheidipides (Φειδιπίδης). This guy - if I am not mistaken, the same that went to Sparta to ask for help - right after the defeat of the Persians - run the whole distance in 1/3 of the time it took the rest of the army to come, to announce to the Athenians that they have won. The move, rationalized, can be attributed to the fact that this was a long march for the army and they didn't know if they make it on time - the Persian fleet was underway and the Athenians had to know that their army was victorious, so the traitors didn't get a chance to convince the Demos to surrender.

Tradition has it that Pheidipides, exhausted by the long run, managed to say only a single word before dropping dead in the feet of his fellowcountrymen: Nenikikamen (Νενικήκαμεν - we have won).

After that, the citizen ditched the traitors and prepared for battle, but their own hoplites came back before the Persians anyway, and when the latter saw the full might of the city waiting for them ready for (another) battle, they just took a hike.

That's the story of the inspiration behind the marathon, dear Papa and Master!

All too true.

And lets not forget that Pheidippides, this human phenomenon of a runner, had just completed another errand -the mission to alert the Spartans. He covered the distance between Athens and Sparta in less than 48 hours. Now, with our modern highways, and travelling by an average of 100km/h, you still need 4 hours to get from Athens to Sparta. Even if he didn't make it to Sparta proper, bur rather alerted the border guards of Lakonia, he would still have accomplished something that borders on the miraculous.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

LOL

Not too shabby a story, but this goes actually quite differently. The inspiration for the marathon was not the fast-paced walk of the whole army back to Athens (which is also part of the story), but the story of a single man, the messenger Pheidipides (Φειδιπίδης).
That's the story of the inspiration behind the marathon, dear Papa and Master!

That's what I was saying, I thought it was that as well but my brother has just finished a French book on Michel Breal (who also 'invented' semantics by the by) and it said that the main inspiration was the march of the troops, not Pheidippides. Haven't seen the book though so can't comment.

Either way, to my mind it is one hell of a lot more impressive for the hoplites to have covered that distance in about 6 hours, after fighting a battle and in full kit, then it is for a trained athlete to have done it (even if he didn't die).

Well..I shall have to run my next Marathon faster then....I usually take about 4:30-4:45....
In fact I don't carry that much weight then...

This is very motivating. Will try to remember the greeks next time I run...

4:30!!! you mad, mad fool - I'm an ex-rugby prop forward so I carry 16 stone weight before I get dressed marathons are definately not for me :laughing:

[fallingstar]

Guys wasn't the athenian general riding a horse with a few bodyguards, could he have galloped back to Athens first before the hoplites?

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

there were 6 generals and an archon, plus all the richer ones had horses so yes, they probably made it back first.

Doesn't take away from the fact that the footsoldiers made it back in about 6 hours.

[Savage_Swede]

ok wait a minute... let me get this strait.. He (the runner) ran from the battlefield to alert the spartans so they would come and help them, then ran back to the athenians to say that the spartans were coming then stayed until the battle was won THEN ran back to athens to say "We have won" then drop dead?

I heard another thing to, that sparta could only begin great military actions at a full moon, is that true?
I think its believable due to the fact that they arrived after the battle was over and the athenians were gone.
I think it was supposed to be a full moon in a few days.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

ok wait a minute... let me get this strait.. He (the runner) ran from the battlefield to alert the spartans so they would come and help them, then ran back to the athenians to say that the spartans were coming then stayed until the battle was won THEN ran back to athens to say "We have won" then drop dead?

I heard another thing to, that sparta could only begin great military actions at a full moon, is that true?
I think its believable due to the fact that they arrived after the battle was over and the athenians were gone.
I think it was supposed to be a full moon in a few days.

yes, and no

he ran
- from Athens to Sparta (145 miles in 2 days!) to say help please. Spartans were in the middle of a festival and so couldn't come until the end of the festival (which is where the full moon comes in) 9 days away
- he then ran back to Athens to relay the Spartan's message (and met the god Pan on the way)
- He then ran 26 miles to marathon where the Athenian army was facing the Persians, to give the Spartan's message and to say that morale in Athens was still good.

there is no mention in the sources that he ever ran back to athens or died, a brief translation of herrodatus says:

The Athenian generals sent Pheidippides, a professional runner, to Sparta to ask the spartans to help fight the Persian army, who had arrived by ship at Marathon. Pheidippides completed the 145 mile journey and arrived in Sparta the day after he left Athens. He delivered the Generals' request, then returned to Athens with the Spartan's reply - which was that due to observances they could not leave Sparta until the full moon. Upon receiving this news the generals decided to attack the Persians anyway, the result being an Athenian victory against seemingly overwhelming odds.
Having been beaten in the field, the Persians returned to their ships and set sail for Athens - to attack it while undefended. However the Athenians marched the 25 miles overland and succeeded in reaching Athens before the ships, at which the Persians thought better of their plan and beat a retreat by sea.

I am still as amazed by what the hoplites of both Sparta and Athens did in full kit as what Pheidippides did:

Pheidippides - 145 miles to Sparta in 2 days, 145 miles back in 2 days then a quick 26 mile warmdown to marathon

Athenians - 26 miles in 5 hours in full battle kit having just fought a battle

Spartans - 145 miles in 3 days in full battle kit They then went on to Marathon to investigate first hand what weapons and equipment the Persians had been using, practical guys the Spartans

[Ummon]

Sorry for any that already knew this, but i didn't

I always believed the story that the marathon was inspired by the Athenian runner running to Sparta to ask for help, running back to athens to give the reply, running from athens to marathon (where the Athenian army was dug in) to tell them what had happened, and then running back to Athens with news of the victory (and dropping dead).

Now I've just discovered that the above story (although based on truth, the guy apparently didn't drop dead) wasn't the inspiration, the inspiration was even more amazing.....

The Athenian army were dug in at marathon blocking Persian access to the 2 passes off the plain, everyone knew the Spartans were at last on the way so the persians had to do something. So in secret they started to embark their cavalry (which was their one true battle winner against the phalanx) to sail to athens and capture it with the help of traitors while the Athenian army was 26 miles away at marathon. To cover this move they advanced their infantry.

The Athenians discovered what was going on from Ionian spies and made the decision to attack. This was a seriously brave move, they were outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1, and every greek army that had fought the Persians in the last 50 years had been beaten. Anyway, they advanced onto the plain and charged the persians. At that point the basic fact of heavily armed and armoured infantry (the Athenians) charging into lightly armoured infantry (the Persians) won the day. The persian infantry were massacred with only the best troops in the centre delaying the inevitable. However, the stand of the Persian Centre also allowed the ships to escape, only 7 were captured by the Athenians. (195 losses to 6500+ isn't too shabby a result even for RTW :laughing: )

and now the amazing part, it was about 10 in the morning, the Athenians had just won a fantastic victory when looking back towards Athens they saw signals being made from the mountains to the sea. Realising that Athens was unprotected and that the Persian cavalry was on its way, the Athenian army promptly turned round and marched the 26 miles back to Athens in about 5-6 hours arriving mid afternoon just in time to be in position as the Persian fleet arrived. The Persians therefore withdrew and athens was saved.

So, if any of you run marathons think of this, the original marathon runners -

- wore/carried about 70-100 pounds of armour and weapons
- had just fought a battle
- and still completed it in about 6 hours

try that for size when you run your next marathon!

As said above, the marathon runner was the guy they sent to inform the citizens that they had won, so that they wouldn't surrender the city to the Persians. He died after relaying his message.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

no,

the whole point is that he didn't die according to Herodatus who was born 6 years after marathon and would surely have mentioned it if he had. In fact (as posted above) Herodatus 'only' says he ran to Sparta and back, no victory run at all.

The myth of the victory run and the dropping dead first appears in Plutarch's Moralia (347C) over 500 years after the Persian wars, Lucian (2nd century AD) also mentions the victory run.

[Rosacrux redux]

Yes, Herodotus never wrote anything about Pheidipides other than his run from Athens to Sparta and back. Plutarch recorded it for the first time ("Over the glory of Athens"), although even he ain't sure if it was Pheidipides or Eroevs or Eukles that brought the news to the city of Athens.

But Plutarch didn't invent it, it was already a triadition in Athens and it has been a part of the oral tradition for several centuries. Other writers mentioning it were Lucian and a couple Roman authors - all in the AD years though.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

so the guy who was closest in time to the event didn't mention it?

but guys who were hundreds of years later did?

sounds like an urban legend to me ..........

(and I'm still as impressed with the Athenian hoplites (and the Spartans for that matter, they only took one day longer to do the march than the professional runner did, and they were carrying their kit)

[Erik]

The myth of the victory run and the dropping dead first appears in Plutarch's Moralia (347C) over 500 years after the Persian wars, Lucian (2nd century AD) also mentions the victory run.

Isn't it strage that people exaggerate a story that is already so increadible?
It's human nature I guess.

Anyways, both parts of the story are a good inspiration for the marathon.
Maybe runners can think about Pheidippides during the first 20k and then about the Athenian army during the last 20k.
Sadly I am a horrible runner.
I used to do 12km training runs but I felt this was the maximum I could take.
I think if I was in the Athenian army I would fake a battle injury to avoid the run.

---

On a different note, did you know how they choose the exact distance of the marathon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon_(sport)#History
The length of a marathon was not fixed, since all that was important was that all athletes competed on the same course. The exact length of an Olympic marathon varied depending on the route established for each venue.

The choice of distance was somewhat arbitrary. The first Olympics in 1896 had a marathon distance of 40 km. The starting point for the 1908 Olympic marathon in London was modified so that the Royal Family could have a good view and the length happened to be 42.195 km (26.2 miles). For the next Olympics in 1912, the length was changed to 40.2 km and changed again to 42.75 km for the 1920 Olympics. Of the first 7 Olympic games, there were 6 different marathon distances between 40 and 42.75 km (40 km being used twice).

A fixed distance of 42.195 km was adopted in 1921 by the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) as the official marathon distance.

[Ummon]

no,

the whole point is that he didn't die according to Herodatus who was born 6 years after marathon and would surely have mentioned it if he had. In fact (as posted above) Herodatus 'only' says he ran to Sparta and back, no victory run at all.

The myth of the victory run and the dropping dead first appears in Plutarch's Moralia (347C) over 500 years after the Persian wars, Lucian (2nd century AD) also mentions the victory run.

From my meories of Heraclitus, which I read three or four times, I think he died. But maybe, this is false memory derived from the interference of the others. In any case, silence is not negative evidence.

[imb39]

Stories of Pheidipides' death were added long after the event. Accounts which occur soon after Marathon do not mention his death at all.

The modern marathon's distance was set in the Olympic Games in London (1908). It was the distance between Windsor Castle and the Olympic Stadium

[Ummon]

Well then that's probably to add some tragic touch to the thing, then.

[Savage_Swede]

so the guy who was closest in time to the event didn't mention it?

but guys who were hundreds of years later did?

sounds like an urban legend to me ..........

Good point! But can anyone be sure he didnt die?
I really want some more solid proof.
In the current situation im afraid we can ask him if he died, can we?

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

other than the pretty much certainty that Herodatus would have mentioned it as a shining example of a citizen's sacrifice for the new democracy, nope.

But I think you can be damn sure he would have mentioned it if it had happened.