POTW Discussion - Images From Other Sources

[LuckyLewis]

Ever since I first took part in this wonderful competition, way back in early 2007, I believe there have always been people entering the POTW with images that are not their own, editing the images and competing with them. Of course, this is absolutely fine and does not break the rules as it stated that 'If you did not take the original, you must give credit to the source.' in the specific rules for the POTW.

This rule has been criticised in the past as some deem it unfair that people can win the POTW when arguably half of the work is getting the money shot in game and it has been recently been brought to my attention again with the latest submissions in POTW 211 and UESW 114.

Obviously, the two POTW images are valid, they are images from other sources, but edited. However, must we ask ourselves if they are edited 'enough'? Should images from other sources with the smallest of editing and modification be allowed to compete in the POTW?

I can see why people may enter with official images. Perhaps their computer is unable to run the latest games in the total war series or the game is simply not out yet (e.g. Shogun 2). But this ask another question, should people be allowed to use the promotional images of a pre-released game in the POTW? Currently, it is probably allowed considering the rules state 'Submissions must be screenshots originating from any of the Total War series games or modifications designed for them.'.

We then come onto the issue in the current UESW submission thread. Supermoler has simply entered an unedited (well, it was probably edited by whoever made it) image of a released Shogun 2 picture. The current UESW specific rules state that 'Submissions must be unedited screenshots. All other entries will not be considered valid submissions.' with no mention as to whether or not images from other sources are allowed. So I don't blame him for doing this.

However, I think we should make it clear in the UESW rules that using an image from an other source will result in the submission being invalid because after all, the whole purpose of the UESW is for screenshots taken in game. I think we can all agree it would be unfair if someone won the UESW for simply searching for a screenshot online.

So to summarize as manager of these competitions, I put these questions to you all:

Primary questions:

• Should TW images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the POTW? Edited or not?
• Should TW images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the UESW?

Secondary images (These won't apply if said no to the above)

• Should images from other sources with the smallest of editing and modification be allowed to compete in the POTW? e.g. adding a simple border to an image from another source.
• Should people be allowed to use the images of a pre-released games in the POTW/UESW? e.g. Shogun 2

I intend to open a poll in a couple of days after some discussion has taken place on the points above. My deepest apologises to Supermoler and MasterbigAb for using their images as examples, but I think it's a good idea to finally come to decision as to whether these images from other sources rules remain or not and put a stop to the criticism.

Note: Can any replies to this thread be purely based on the points I have raised above, issues that you feel need to be raised elsewhere in the rules can be discussed at another time perhaps.

Hopefully when this is all finished, we can close this chapter and enforce a clear rule on what you all want.

[Hesus de bodemloze]

Primary questions:

• Should images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the POTW? Edited or not?
• Should images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the UESW?

Depends of what you mean with "from other sources" if they are from TW games i can't see no problem. If they are from other games than TW they shouldn't be allowed. Why you might ask, it's just to keep it fair as other games like let's say COD IV or what ever it's called these days have higher quality graphics.

Secondary images (These won't apply if said no to the above)

• Should images from other sources with the smallest of editing and modification be allowed to compete in the POTW? e.g. adding a simple border to an image from another source.
• Should people be allowed to use the images of a pre-released games in the POTW/UESW? e.g. Shogun 2

1. PoTW stands for editing pictures, if you chose to only add a border to your images you should be allowed. If i need to vote for an image that has a border or one that has a complete make over like added a clouds, castle and a river i will vote for this picture because the creator has put in more effort.

2. Using sources of pre released TW games shouldn't be a problem as every one is able to use them.

[LuckyLewis]

Depends of what you mean with "from other sources" if they are from TW games i can't see no problem. If they are from other games than TW they shouldn't be allowed. Why you might ask, it's just to keep it fair as other games like let's say COD IV or what ever it's called these days have higher quality graphics.

Total War only of course. The POTW/UESW has always been purely about the Total War series. I assume you are talking about the POTW, what about the UESW? In which finding an image online without editing it requires little effort I'd say.

Example would be searching 'Medieval 2 Total War' on google, uploading any one of those images and then entering it into the UESW. Should that be allowed? When arguably all they have done is found an image on the internet?

I'd just like to clarify I'm happy which ever ways this goes, I just don't want to make decisions without consulting everyone first.

[MasterBigAb]

Mhmm well, using images from Shogun II should not be allowed to stay fair...

[Supermoler]

I didnt want to do any bad thing

[LuckyLewis]

I didnt want to do any bad thing

I wouldn't worry about it, many have done what you have done before. I just want us all to make a standpoint on this once and for all so we can say what goes and what doesn't in both the USEW and POTW. Sure, the POTW rule is pretty clear but as I've said, people have expressed dislike for it in the past so we should make a decision as to whether it stays or not.

I do think the UESW rules asking whether or not images from other sources are allowed is slightly vague though. I would sense that it was intended that images from other sources were not allowed for the UESW.

[Katsumoto]

How about adding a rule for the UESW that you have to take the screenshot yourself? Because then people who can't run the latest TW can still enter the POTW with their edited screenshot. I'm not really sure it's fair that someone makes the effort of finding a good shot and entering in the UESW and then someone else just searching for a screenshot online and winning it because someone else took the screenshot and found the good angle/scene etc.

I also don't think screenshots for not-as-yet released games should be allowed.

[LuckyLewis]

How about adding a rule for the UESW that you have to take the screenshot yourself?

That is the intention if people agree with making it more clear that images you haven't taken yourself shouldn't be allowed in the UESW. Right now it's kinda vague as it just says any unedited image is valid.

[Killerbee]

Should TW images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the POTW? Edited or not?
Should TW images from other sources will be allowed to compete in the UESW?

As for the first one, I say yes, but I can understand why people would say no.
The second one, no. The PURPOSE of the UesW competition is to create a beautiful pic by yourself (without editing). If you can't edit, the only way to win is to create a nice shot. Googling for those nice shots is not work imo.

[Neige]

For UESW - only screenshots you've taken yourself! This should be out of question!
For POTW - any TW releated pic edited yourself. And by edited I mean more than just cropping or adding black bars, cos that's just pathetic. Although who am I to judge. Cropping is also editing. In a manner of speaking.

['Gunny]

I would just like to raise a point taht most pictures for unreleased TW games are likely edited, if not by the user, by professionals. therefore this should bar them from UESW

[.Mitch.]

UESW - Take the picture yourself. (Or Ban (from TWC (forever) ) )

POTW - Still preferably a picture taken by you IMHO, but that will never happen. So just make sure all content of the picture is from TW. In past I'v seen freaking chuck noriss edited in.. wtf ?!?


You all have 24 hours to meet my demands.. or Legio gets it.

[Katsumoto]

I would just like to raise a point taht most pictures for unreleased TW games are likely edited, if not by the user, by professionals. therefore this should bar them from UESW

Yeah I was going to mention this too. Not really fair if all the hard work is done already.

[Remlap]

While you are discussing the rules could you look into repeat entries? I understand why they are allowed I just don't think its right. Yes we all work on a shot till we like it but I think we should put it in once and see if it is up to par and if not look at what we can do to improve and try a new pic next week instead of the same one over and over until it wins. Or maybe even make a limit before it can be entered again.

~Remlap

[Brego]

Imo people shouldn't be allowed to use pictures that isnt taken yourself, cause the biggest task imo is to get a good shot, cause anyone that's good at editing can make a good screenshot look good. And many that uses other screenshots often also use screenshots that is of much higher quality than the normal screenshot people take. At least I never vote for pictures that arent taken by the people editing it, no matter how good edited they are.

[Tim1988]

I think that for UESW the picture must be one of your own, and for this reason, couldn't be from any future release (i.e. Shogun2). There is no way of knowing whether a picture from the internet has been edited by someone else (which the majority probably have) and so this would put you at an advantage. Take the example used in the original post. In my opinion, that's not an unedited screen shot and shouldn't be allowed. Just because the submitter hasn't done anything to it doesn't mean that its unedited.

As for POTW, I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand, allowing screenshots not taken by the competitor could give them an advantage, especially if they start with an already edited screenshot, meaning that they have only really done half of the work. Part of the skill in POTW is also taking the screenshot itself, its not all about the editing.
On the other hand, some people can put a lot of work editing a screenshot that they may not have taken, and it seems a shame not to put them on display.
Ideally, the rules should be that pictures can be entered with the original coming from somewhere else, but on the condition that they've had significant editing done, so that it is more their work, than that of the original taker. However, the trouble then arises as to how to judge what level of editing is "significant enough" to allow it to be entered.

[The Hedge Knight]

You should not be able to enter others shots in uesw for the simple reason that it denys other people posting the same shot when imn theory they have equal right too(though there are no rules against it).

[Vespasian92]

Well, what about the people like me, who don't have/don't care about gimp and what not to edit the screens awesomely. People like me work hard finding the money screens for the UESW. I do disagree with letting people take screens from other places, putting them as their own in UESW, and winning over people who took their own darn screens and are proud of it. Proud of taking it themselves are working far within the rules and what would be considered fair, not walking in any grey areas.

['Gunny]

It is wrong for UESW, all i did was look up Shogun 2, and boom, money shot

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Neige]

Yeah, we could as well rename UESW to "Googling competitions".