BLASPHEMER BEGONE!
But yeah, I agree. Maybe there was some evil force involved. But I think Tolkien would've mentioned it, he wasn't exactly subtle on documenting the history.
BLASPHEMER BEGONE!
But yeah, I agree. Maybe there was some evil force involved. But I think Tolkien would've mentioned it, he wasn't exactly subtle on documenting the history.
I do not see the lore fail and as for the first, so what? and the second, that is your opinion, I read through it and have not seen any posts similar to mine.
I have never read that cosmological interpretation, as I read it, his mother goes mad and than Finwe deserts her and takes a new wife, and to fill this vacuum and neglect, Feanor takes to great works.
Feanor just understands more about the nature of the Valar, being in a position to, having surpassed them to some extent through his own works.
How was Galadriel the second greatest, if anyone it would be Maedhros because he had Feanor's spirit, or Luthien, or Elwe.
Fingolfin wanted the crown, the reason he left Valinor was to lead those that would otherwise have followed Feanor into exile. If he did not want the crown than he would of deferred to his older brother. Fingolfin was not supporting him, there was never ending talk against Feanor from his crew.
Fingolfin wanted the kingship.
Fingolfin followed Feanor into exile becuase he swore an oath, not cuase he wanted the crown! He followed simply becuase otherwise he would have gotten the crown of the noldor staying in Valinor and he swor an oath to follow his brother until his death. All noldor knew he was good, when Maedhros should have became High-King of all the noldor he gave the crown to Fingolfin. Please dont make stuff up, this isnt LOTRO
I have not made a thing up. Mandos said to Feanor "by your oath you are exiled", not to Fingolfin who made no oath.
Fingolfin would of been left to rule less than 10% of the Noldor if he had stayed.
Maedhros gave the crown to Fingolfin for political reasons and it was an act of supreme self sacrifice, not because Fingolfin was "good".
If Fingolfin was truly keeping to his words at the reconciliation, he would not have spoken against him, even less so accepted kingship from the Noldor over Feanor and even further would have supported him completely after the kinslaying.
Fingolfin and his sons wherent at the kinslaying! They where behind and when they came there they didnt know what was going on and thought that valar had commanded the teleri to attack the noldor. After the kinslaying he was left at helcaraxe and after that they didnt even speak to each other anymore. Feanor and his sons swor an oath to kill Morgoth and take back the silmarils. Fingolfin swor to support his brother.
Ah, the World Of Tolkien Th First Fiction Lore i Mastered......
How long have i been away from you.....
Feanor, HIgh King Of Noldor and Son of Finwe, elder, half brother of Fingolfin and Finarfin of Which, Finarfin became High King Of The Noldor that remained in Valinor and Tirion, fingolfin,and Feanor and all their Kin, Went Back to Beleriand and Middle earth via the Grinding Ice of the North the Helacraxe(sorry i know its misspell), and faught the Dark enemy Melkor thru 4 battles, of which the First the Battle Under starts, Feanor fell in, The Third Battle of Belariand, second for the Noldor, was the Glorious Battle, resulting in the Long Siege of Angband Melkor's Stronghold, after which The Battle of Sudden Flame saw the utter destruction of some elven Kingdoms, and Fingolfin's death against Melkor in a duel, the fourth battle The Battle of Unnumbbered Tears, saw the complete destructions of every kingdom save Gondolin, Narogathrond and Doriath. Then comes the War of Wrath yada yada yada, you all know the story.
Now then, Feanor evil? eh no, he wanted to avenge his father and retrieve the most sacred of objects back for the elves, the other elves simply joined in with him.
Legitmacy debate going on i believe?
And no, Maehdros gave Fingolfin the Crown on an Oath that The Sons of Feanor could not and should not rule the Noldor, and that the HOuse of Fingolfin thru both Fingon and Turgon and Gil-Galad Fingon's son should rule, therefore by that mandate and being the oldest living elf besides Cirdan in the Third Age, Galadrial is considered the Second Most Powerful Eldar ever, but only when the Third Age Comes About.
Maehdros and Maglor were fools, for at the end when offered pardon and a place in Valinor, the took the simarials to their graves, because of a oath, which thought sworn on eru the one, they still should have broken, for then by admitting the fault of their father, and of the war, they would show that they were stronger than any Noldor before them, for that would have taken true courage, that is why the Simarials Injured both the brothers before they died.
Okay.
I don't want to push things up, should they no in the right place.
Now that the discussion is awake, I shall join.
1) It was Feanor that was always thought something about his brothers.
His father Finwe was not even dead yet, at that time. What's with the crown matters?
2) The Valar, especially Manwe, is authorized by Eru Illuvatar himself, as the LORD OF ARDA.
Every single piece of object, created by Eru, is entrusted to Manwe.
The Valar act as steward in place of Eru, the Lord of the West.
And now, you said the Valar have no authority of ruling the elves? The Children of Eru?
3) The Valar lived on the place first, as the only inhabitants of Aman.
It's their own place after all, the Elves come under them.
It's very strange to have the Gods themselves to defend themselves, wouldn't it?
4) What's the 'debts' the Teleri owe to thbe Noldor? It's been a while since my last read.
It's said the ships are as valuable to the Teleri, as the jewels to Noldor.
Feanor refused the giving of the Silmarils, which even weren't his full creation, to revive the Two Trees.
And then now you ask for other's creations? To serve your OWN purpose? Well said.
6) The ships are not HIS. He, if all could be said, BORROWED the ships.
The Eldar have never defined who was the 'royal' 'upper' class.
The Teleri and Noldor was all the same Children of Eru, and Feanor has absolute no authority over them.
Burning other's properties and call it a good decision? Another great point.
Aure entuluva!
The answer is up for anybody to decide for himself.
But I doubt Tolkien considered Fëanor evil, while no doubt some of his acts was evil.
Classic philosophical debate required hehe, weither result or intent is of greater importance. Fëanors revolt was an evil act but not based on evil intents, as compared to say Sauron. Or Maeglin and Turin who brought about the fall of Gondor and Nargothrond - in the first case the evil Maeglin did it for personal gain and hate while the results of Turins pride and temper was just as bad but did not mark Turin as evil.
Fëanors fault and reasons to begin his wrong doings were the same as Turin;Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth, and to Maeglin he promised the lordship of Gondolin as his vassal, and the possession of Idril Celebrindal, when the city should be taken; and indeed desire for Idril and hatred for Tuor led Maeglin the easier to his treachery, most infamous in all the histories of the Elder Days. -Silm; Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
Though I think it was of importance to Tolkien that he did not search power as a mean to have slaves, nor did he want to cause death as a joy in itself (but perhaps as revenge).He was not gentle. He was proud and hot-tempered, and opposition to his will he met ... with fierce resentment. He was restless in mind and body, though... he could become wholly absorbed in works of the finest skill of hands; but he left many things unfinished. His pride more and more clouded his reason, and of all the children of Finwë he became the most arrogant. - HoMe 12
After his loved father Finwës death and the theft of his greatest creations Fëanor loses it though, its in this time he commits his evil deeds. But if teleri would had given up their ships there would been no Kinslaying because F.'s intent was not murder for its own sake. At the burning F. seems to already lost his mind in a way that has to be brought into consideration. A mad-man can be compared to a non-moral existence and thus not evil if one put emphasis on the evildoers reason (a animal may do an evil thing as cause a death but its not evil)
I do not claim this do not make F. something else than evil because its a subjective oppinion but I do get the impression, once more, that Tolkien did not consider Fëanor evil.Then Fëanor laughed as one fey, and he cried: 'None and none! What I have left behind I count now no loss; needless baggage on the road it has proved.' - Silm; Of the Flight of the Noldor
Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared: but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. - Silm; Of the Return of the Noldor
Last edited by Ngugi; October 24, 2011 at 09:07 AM.
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U mean the fall of Gondolin and Nargothrond right?
@RTW Fan
"Galdriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with long years" UT pg 229
"These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor were unfriends forever" UT pg 230
Kingship and lordship among Elves is quite odd, it does represent divine right in the nature of the extraordinary power of those born of the line of Finwe. Yet the rule seems to be by the consent of those ruled. Note Finrod casting away his crown when his people hearken to Celegorm, or Celegorm leaving when in turn the people turn to Orodreth and last Galadriel's abandonment of Eregion over the Annater debate. Maedhros recognition that he in no way could force his kingship onto the Noldor over the much more popular Fingolfin speaks volume of his wisdom.
Keeping this in mind, it is clear that if Fingolfin truly desired Kingship over the Noldor he had simply to abandon his Oath to Feanor and turn back with his following as Finarfin did. The bulk of the Noldor including the Children of Finarfin and Fingolfin would have done likewise. To become King of the majority of the Noldor all Fingolfin had to do was turn around.
I think the nature of the individual Noldor is reflected in the nature of their chosen lord. Celegorm is an evil elf if ever there was one, only his followers are described as cruel. Maedhros followers seem every bit as conflicted as their Lord as their actions at the Mouths of the Sirion illustrate.
Feanor is not evil in the sense of Morgoth though he shares egomaniacal tendencies. Feanor's evil is expressed in his actions not his motivations. Feanor's motivations are not that bad his methods and actions are. Feanor constantly justifies his actions, a priest told me once if you have to justify or excuse your actions then you have already recognized the wrong in those actions yourself.
Last edited by muller227; October 24, 2011 at 11:33 AM.
He's fine with Aule creating the dwarves. There was no malice or pride in what Aule did. The Silmarils were Feanor's and he could do whatever he wanted to with them. Remember, he saw Melkor for what he was and despised him from the start. Had the Valar cast Melkor out, than many creatures would not have suffered and died. Melkor lusted for the Silmarils and Feanor did not make a distinction between the Valar. To Feanor, Manwe was like Melkor. He felt the Noldor were being held prisoner and that one of the wardens had killed his father.
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1) Fingolfin advised his father to restrain his older brother. Surely talking out of place.
2) I said they had no innate authourity which is evidenced by the debate they had among themselves where Valar like Ulmo did not believe that the Elves should be allowed into Aman, as well as the elves that did go there, went on their own volition.
3) The Elves lived under the authourity of the Valar as is evidenced by Feanor's banishment at the Valar's command. The Valar had shown that their authourity was fallible by the death of Finwe and the taking of the silmarils.
4) For building their city. The Teleri said that the ships were as valuable to them as the silmarils were to Feanor. Whether Feanor, or even an independant observor would have agreed on this is debatable. The Teleri were also willing to fight and kill to protect them, even though Feanor initially only wanted passage over the sea. The Teleri are not morally any different to Feanor, if not worse morally, in that Feanor probably would of originally returned them.
5) Feanor was the oldest son, and as such, was king after the death of Finwe by Elven law.
6) Yes burning the ships was a bold executive decision. It meant those with him were now bound to the purpose entirely as they had no hope of retreat, and got rid of those of questionable loyalty and hanger ons by leaving them on the other side of the sea. As for regard for the Teleri, the Teleri had after all forced Feanor into kinslaying just to leave Valinor for no good reason, why should he have had any regard for them?
Ok, fair about Galadriel, I have not read those in over a decade.
I thought that the kingship was fairly linear. Finrod was never a king as such, being subject to Fingolfin, and he threw away his crown in disgust at the treason of his own people. Celegorm made a claim that he was of the older house(Feanor's) and therefore had more right to leadership.
Maedhros' decision speaks volumes more about how he was going to keep the Noldor united. In reality, it was Maedhros that led the war against Morgoth, especially after the death of Fingolfin.
If Fingolfin had of turned back
1) Most of his following would of probably sought to press on.
2) He would of returned in absolute shame.
Last edited by RTW Fan; October 24, 2011 at 07:35 PM.
Feanor was not evil in his heart, but his acts were somehow.
And he is not a Saint.
Kingship was linear in Men, namely Numenorean and the heir to it.
As there is NO other lines in their own right.
When it does happens, happens.
In the brighter days, like Silmarien, daughter of King Tar-Elendil was given heirlooms and her sons Lord of Andunie.
However in the dark days Arnor was divided into three parts and ruin thereafter.
As we can see, Gondor and Arnor is equally divided to Isildur and Anarion, as shown that Kingship was not always linear.
The laws of Numenor, and the Dunedain in Exile, was from the elves who taught them everything, from the First Age.
Last edited by KnightsTemplar; October 25, 2011 at 05:27 AM.
Aure entuluva!
Evil - period. He is absolutely selfish.
He started down that road before Morgoth was around and did nothing to turn aside, and in fact never shows any remorse or self doubt. He whines a big fuss of his little gems but takes the master work of other without thought or care - > evil - only my stuff is important. He betrays those who swore loyalty to him -> evil. In the end with the inevitable foresight of death (see Plato and the Apology) he knows his whole venture is doomed to failure and yet he seeks no forgiveness for his treachery nor commands his sons to seek Eru and release from their vow in honesty (which of course Eru could have done at any time) ->evil again.
Morgoth was not evil in the beginning either lets recall - Feanor was not either but he made himself a dick and walked his own path to evil. Sorry I also have no sypanthy fo a man who betrays his own family like Feanor does. Oh call the whambulance I have brothers - in fact his socipathic selfishness is already there fro all to see with his whole I should have been an only child I wonder how many little animals Feanor killed on his little mining ventures by himself...
Last edited by conon394; October 25, 2011 at 07:10 AM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Tell us how you really feel Conon.
I think you are pretty much right though, Feanor may not be beyond redemption until right before his death, but he is clearly on the slippery slope on top of a sled. The issue with Fingolfin is clearly stated as being Melkor's manipulations of Feanor's paranoia. Something set to right inside the Circle of Doom itself, The Oath of Fingolfin is as binding as that of the Oath on Feanor's sons, or the Oathbreakers at Erech for that matter. You do not break an Oath in ME, even if it means your death or damnation. Elrond's gentle counsel to Gimli, has a much deeper meaning in ME lore than most realize. Finally on pg 84 of the Silmarillion it clearly states that the Noldor preferred Fingolfin, Fingolfin goes forward because of Fingon, concern for his people, and remembrance of his oath. Finarfin and his followers received pardon, there is no reason to believe Fingolfin and his followers would not have received the same pardon if they had not gone forward at that point.
The three deeds of Feanor, that are the worst, The Oath, Alquolonde, or the burning at Losgar are all betrayals of kin and family. The Oath in my mind is the worst, as a father damning your sons is the most reprehensible act I can imagine. The excuse that he is mad with grief doesn't work that well, when it clearly states that his haste was entirely based on the fact that he did not want the Noldor to think things over too long, pretty calculating if you ask me. He may have been nuts at the end but seems pretty together until then.Only the grief for the death of his father is redeeming, a redemption he puts to use which is not exactly a good thing to do either.
Finally it must be noted that Maedhros Feanor's eldest son and heir defies Feanor at Losgar. It is interesting that the two sons described as most like Feanor Celegorm (rhetoric) and Curufin (skill of hand), are also the most despicable of the Noldor.
Last edited by muller227; October 25, 2011 at 03:43 PM.
His gems were made with a superior art to even the Valar. Aule himself understands that to break them (if they could indeed be broken) would be to break Feanor. The ships of the Teleri were made with the help of the Maia and probably were not on the same scale. And he did not take them without thought or care, he initially sought them only for hire, but despite all the work the Noldor had done for the Teleri, he was refused.
He had reason to doubt that loyalty. At the very least, Fingolfin did not defer his leadership to Feanor, which was after all Feanor's right, given that he was the first born. Let alone the seeming toleration for the mutterings against him by Fingolfin's followers. Nor did he accept those words at the time they were made, and they were not an oath. He never betrayed those who spoke the same oath as he did.
I think that this part may have been added by editors. He obviously does not feel that he committed treachery. We have no idea whether or how Eru could release the sons of Feanor or not.
Feanor was the only elve to lose his mother, and elves were not usually allowed to marry twice. Dispensation was made for Finwe, but on condition that his first wife could never return. It is hardly an irrelevant point, every time that he saw his brothers, he must of been reminded of the fact that they lived at the expense of his mother.
Finglofin never made an oath, he just said words which Feanor ignored.
Well Elrond was raised by Maedhros, who had attacked Elrond's mother because of an oath.
Well there is kind of reason to believe that Fingolfin would not have recieved the same pardon, because he would not have turned back out of remorse, but only because he could find no way across.
Poor Fingolfin always seems to get the short end of the stick. I'd actually arguee that he was a much better leader than Feanor. Feanor had a nice, easy sail, while Fingolfin had to lead his people across the Grinding Ice. Because of an oath to an Elf who had just abandoned him and his host. That right there is loyalty. He actually brough Morgoth out into battle and went toe-to-toe with him.
Fingolfin withstood Nine blows from Morgoth, each of which left a huge crater. He left Morgoth with wounds that would never heal.
Was Feanor Evil? Not originally. He was proud, perhaps the proudest being to walk the earth. He had moments where he did evil things, like the kin slaying. And while Feanor made jewels no one could match, the Teleri made ships no one could match. their ships were as dear to them as the Silmarils were to Feanor.
(the part where he realized his war was futile wasn't added by the editors, it was basically his pride giving way for a bit as he died, before it came back to have him exhorting his sons to continue with his vow)
Please rep me for my posts, not for the fact that i have a Pony as an Avatar.
Maedhros is the most rightful one among the sons IMHO.
The glory of the Silmaril was the reflection of the Two Trees, the very trees the Valar themselves planted.
And so it preserved the light, the essence of the Two Trees.
Shipwright was most likely the Teleri's greatest skill, and was unrival even in Valinor.
Building a ship is no easy work.
The object not shining, not being retardly 'valuable' doesn't mean them are cheap or anything.
Aure entuluva!