Nuremberg Trials - Victors Revenge?

[Consul Napoleon Bonaparte]

n/a

[Smokey Bacon]

"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged."

[SorelusImperion]

I small Fascist revisionism. It's the wrong subsection the the forum anyway.

[Mightypeon]

Partly yes.
Generally speaking, it is against common jurisprudence to convict people for "waging an aggressive war" if waging an aggressive war has never been illegal before.
Its not as if the Nazi high ups could not have been comfortably charged with enough other stuff.
I also disagree on some sentences. Speers sentence was propably to light (given that his subordinate got executed while he lived), Hoess sentence (he didnt do jack due to beeing a bit crazy and spending most of the war in a British jail) was midly wtf. And the German generals that were tried should have been shot and not hanged...

On the other hand, the Nazi brass had to opportunity to defend themselfs, and there were aquitalls, so they werent total show trials.

[Tiberios]

America is just as guilty as Germany was, and yet, because the Allies won theyre "the good guys" and have Diplomatic Immunity. This is the world we live in.

Oh really? Mind telling me how many people termed as sub humans died in Allied concentration and death camps? How many German villages were torched by Western Allied troops as they advanced into Germany?

[Luger]

Personally, I think the Nuremburg Trials were unfair. Its not like Russia didnt commit atrocities throughout the war, and yet Stalin lived for about 7 years more.

Not prosecuting all war criminals, doesn't make the prosecuted more innocent

And what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Tens of Thousands of people died in SECONDS. And yet, more died of radioactivity. Even more than that are DEFORMED for live.

At that time a common strategy, how many trials were held against Luftwaffe bomber pilots?

America is just as guilty as Germany was, and yet, because the Allies won theyre "the good guys" and have Diplomatic Immunity.

Because the Allies won, diplomacy still exist in this world

This is the world we live in.

No this was 60 years ago...

[Skejtu]

Personally, I think the Nuremburg Trials were unfair. Its not like Russia didnt commit atrocities throughout the war, and yet Stalin lived for about 7 years more. And what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Tens of Thousands of people died in SECONDS. And yet, more died of radioactivity. Even more than that are DEFORMED for like. America is just as guilty as Germany was, and yet, because the Allies won theyre "the good guys" and have Diplomatic Immunity. This is the world we live in.

And what do you want? It was war, 3rd Reich was beaten and now what? USA and rest are supposed to hang their soldiers and officers? Because you think that it's unfair?


2WW was one of the most brutal periods in human history and you expect that after war generals from both sides will grab their hands and eat a soup together?

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Personally, I think the Nuremburg Trials were unfair. Its not like Russia didnt commit atrocities throughout the war, and yet Stalin lived for about 7 years more.

How could anyone do anyhting about Stalin? Even the USSR hated him and condemned him as soon as he died.

And what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Tens of Thousands of people died in SECONDS. And yet, more died of radioactivity.

millions would have died in an invasion. It would have been a bloodbath every inch of the way from the beaches to the Emperor. Is it better to kill 200,000 or 10 million?

America is just as guilty as Germany was, and yet, because the Allies won theyre "the good guys" and have Diplomatic Immunity. This is the world we live in.

every single army in the war killed prisoners of war and did its share of looting and pillaging. Naturally it was far more common on the eastern front and in the Pacific.

Yet the axis were the only mass murderers, torturers and all that.

[frank_garrett]

just the fact that american and russia commited war crimes and dident got punished dosent mean anything about nuirenberg trials. your right about that. but theres no connection. i do think american commited many war crimes. and dont forgot vietnam,korea,iraq, etc etc.... but just because USA control the world with thier dirty money means that they will never will brought up to justice.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

What I personally know is that the people responsible for every atrocity commit in my country, Greece, for the massacre of villagers, the burning of villages, the great starvation of Athens etc, were never accused and never led to court. What I feel is that the Nurnemberg trials was just a Soviet/Allied political game where only 20-30 (don't remember how many) of the high ranked officers of the third reich were accused. Generals, colonels, privates, etc, thousands of them responsible for atrocities and acts they personally ordered and witnessed survived the War and the Trials..

[Cataphractoi]

How could anyone do anyhting about Stalin? Even the USSR hated him and condemned him as soon as he died.

Indeed this is true. Churchill himself pressued the US to keep their forced stationed in (what would become) West Germany alongside the British as he knew that the Russians would remain and if the US pulled out there would be greater possibility of Russian invasion. (My grandad himself was stationed there between '47 and '49 for that very reason).

millions would have died in an invasion. It would have been a bloodbath every inch of the way from the beaches to the Emperor. Is it better to kill 200,000 or 10 million?

Yes indeed, not only a bloodbath but it would have drained US and British resources in sustaining the invasion (about 40% of forces were British in the pacific theatre, with more on their way) when there were other, more pressing obligations to be considerd than fighting a war with a foregone conclusion. Also, the Russians had joined the war against the Japanese and US/Britian didn't want the Russians to make territorial aquisitions on Japan, leading to a similar situation in Japan as in Germany.

This way it would also keep the economy of Japan intact, menaing the Japan could sustain itself as the wrecked Germany could not, this would also give Japan a fighting chance and changing them into a useful ally against Russia and newly communist China in the eastern hemisphere.
So causing a capituation was in the greater interest of everyone (except Russia and China).

every single army in the war killed prisoners of war and did its share of looting and pillaging. Naturally it was far more common on the eastern front and in the Pacific.

Yes but I still wouldent underplay the existence of this type of behaviour in other armies. The Japanese were actually guilty of more single atrocities (if not on the same volume as the eastern front) in the Forgotten War. Japanese PoW camps were as bad as the German concentration camps, with similar treatment of the soldiers in them to Jewish treatment in death and labour camps.[/quote]

Yet the axis were the only mass murderers, torturers and all that.

I have to disagree completely with this statement. The Russians did exactly the same to German prisoners (and even worse things to members of The Russian Liberation Army) and their use of the Gulag to get rid of members of their own society was along the same lines as the germans version (but the difference was the Germans used most of this treatment on foreigners)
Indeed the Soviets decimated their own nation and army of talented individuals and later the enitre polish command and in their '39 occupation. and when they forced the Germans back they did what the germans had done to them. While this does not excuse their behaviour it certainly explains it.

I think its too much to ask for 'excuse' when dealing with history. Moral obligations are quite irrelevent as they prove nothing other than one event is fufilling set parameters.

And finally we had the trials to placate the public who demanded retribution. But of course the allies wern't going to decsend to such a low level that it contradicted their own creeds, nuremburg were pretty much show trials. And what there was to sort out, was degree of guilt. for example Albert Speer was given inprisonment because of mitigating factors which needed to be taken into account.

By the way? Is this thread an argument or just a rant? It seems more of a rant to begin with.

[Ältester der Motten]

I smell Fascist revisionism. It's the wrong subsection the the forum anyway.

AD HOMINEM!

Who cares if it is Fascist revisionism. If they have a point, then I guess they have one, if not, well I guess we can defeat their stance then. Simple as that.


Don't be a fascist.

Yet the axis were the only mass murderers, torturers and all that.

Every faction in war is mass murdering so to say.

Mass torturing isn't all that uncommon either, I refer you to post-reformatory Europe and witch trials.

But yes, Nazi Germany and some of her allies were pretty horrible too.

[Morbius Sire]

You can't be Belligerent nation in war like WW2 and not be a mass murder.

The allies had won the war, and had the victor's right to do whatever they can to the losers.

They chose to make trials to show some transparency to avoid another versailles treaty. Hitler was able to rally and remake Germany because he used the Versailles treaty as one point to get the german people to support him.

[hippacrocafish]

Tens of thousands of Japanese died in seconds because they refused to surrender after being defeated in a war that they started, they made it clear that they would fight an American invasion with everything they had and The US government didn't want to waste the lives of American soldiers just to bring an end to the war. The Germans killed millions of innocent civilians for no reason other than that they did not like their religion/lifestyle/etc. which doesn't even compare to Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, not to mention many of these people died slowly either through starvation or being worked to death.

The Russians were just as bad as the Germans, I will not argue with you there, they had no regard for the lives of their soldiers (Suffering somewhere from 9,000,000 to 10,000,000 casualties I think, whereas every other country involved suffered only a fraction of that.) and Stalin ruthlessly executed any dissenters or sent them to work camps, where they would likely die.

Saying that the Allies (Excluding Russia) were as bad as or worse than the Axis is just stupid.

[(s)AINT]

The Allies didn't form special paramilitary units to hunt down and execute jews, communists, political opponents and other enemies of the State.

The Allies didn't gas millions of civilians.

The Allies didn't start aggressive wars to conquer land and enslave populations.

While there was some victors revenge - it was justice never the less.

[Lysimachos11]

Tens of thousands of Japanese died in seconds because they refused to surrender after being defeated in a war that they started, they made it clear that they would fight an American invasion with everything they had and The US government didn't want to waste the lives of American soldiers just to bring an end to the war. The Germans killed millions of innocent civilians for no reason other than that they did not like their religion/lifestyle/etc. which doesn't even compare to Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, not to mention many of these people died slowly either through starvation or being worked to death.

The Russians were just as bad as the Germans, I will not argue with you there, they had no regard for the lives of their soldiers (Suffering somewhere from 9,000,000 to 10,000,000 casualties I think, whereas every other country involved suffered only a fraction of that.) and Stalin ruthlessly executed any dissenters or sent them to work camps, where they would likely die.

Saying that the Allies (Excluding Russia) were as bad as or worse than the Axis is just stupid.

Vaporizing thousands of civilians while you are perfectly aware that the Japanese military dictatorship does not care for civilian casualties is criminal. It is always pretended like the nuclear bombs influenced the Japanese military Junta to surrender, but why would they if they were preparing to defend Japan to the last man? Because of two bombardments they would simply give up suddenly? Most of the Japanese population did not even hear about the nuclear bombs until some time after the war had already ended. The Soviet approach via Manchuria scared the Japanese military because it crushed their armies like bugs, not American bombs that were destroying civilian homes for years already.

Saying there are good and bad sides in war is just stupid. The Allies also bombed Dresden remember, a complete and deliberate waste of lives.

[Proconsul Gaius]

Personally, I think the Nuremburg Trials were unfair. Its not like Russia didnt commit atrocities throughout the war, and yet Stalin lived for about 7 years more. And what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Tens of Thousands of people died in SECONDS. And yet, more died of radioactivity. Even more than that are DEFORMED for like. America is just as guilty as Germany was, and yet, because the Allies won theyre "the good guys" and have Diplomatic Immunity. This is the world we live in.

I agree. The "Allies" and "Axis" is just a point of view. Just like how we see our soldiers as heroes, and the Germans saw theirs as heroes, as did the Russian and Japanese. Everything is a point of view, and history is written by the victors. Were the Gauls REALLY barbaric, or did the Romans write that about them just because they won and they were their enemies? History repeats itself...the winners of wars will always put themselves on the high horse.

Nazi Germany sadly is wrongfully remembered. People remember Hitler for the bad, for the Holocaust and not for the good things he did as well. He saved his country in my opinion, and I dont condone what he did, but its wrong for society to deem the Third Reich as evil when the Soviets were killing people too, but get away with it because they took our side. I mean come on, look what the US did to Native Americans and the Japanese.

I am an American, proud of it too. But I dont hesitate to say that America has the tendacy to think its dont stink. We forgot our history and what we've done, yet were so quick to judge others. I applaud you for being brave enough to make this post taking the side of the Germans, knowing so many ignorant people could potentially bash you for supporting what they did when in reality you're just calling it how it is. A game of favorites, and politics.

[kentuckybandit]

I small Fascist revisionism. It's the wrong subsection the the forum anyway.

Yeah you can smell it's stink from 4 subsections away.

[GhirYear]

To the OP: The argument that perpetrators of war crimes on the allied and communist side weren't prosecuted is a very weak one. Legally it is irrelevant whether other perpetrators have been prosecuted or not. Criminal guilt is always individual guilt. Besides isn't it better if at least some of the war criminals actually face trial rather than none?

The big problem with Nuremberg is indeed the retroactive application of criminal laws (the criminal law must have existed prior to the crime). The court and prosecution were aware of this issue and tried to find a legal construct to fill the gap: They searched for provisions prohibiting the acts committed in pre WW II international law (and found some in the Geneva Convention, the Hague Treaties and the Versailles Treaty). The problem was that these provisions weren't criminal laws. They obliged the states not the individual. Moreover, they didn't cover all the crimes contained in the London Treaty (the basis for Nuremberg).

This basic legal flaw aside, the Nuremberg trials were reasonable fair. It is very telling that the arguments against Nuremberg usually don't deny the guilt of the accused. Later research piled on more evidence rather than excuse the Nazi leaders judged at Nuremberg.

If you want to argue about a questionable war criminal tribunal, argue about the Tokyo tribunal. It had far more flaws (i.e. an alcoholic prosecutor and a majority of judges who didn't speak the language of the proceedings).

[Elemental]

This basic legal flaw aside, the Nuremberg trials were reasonable fair. It is very telling that the arguments against Nuremberg usually don't deny the guilt of the accused. Later research piled on more evidence rather than excuse the Nazi leaders judged at Nuremberg.

Alfred Jodel was aquited by a German court several years after he was hanged at Nurnberg. So no, history has shown this too be a kangeroo
court.