Unit Suggestions (pre version 4 - now redundant)

[Torvus]

This seems like a really minor point. Of course, it could also be solved the way they did in SS, with having several different types of armor listed at each upgrade level.

[Massive_attack]

As the above guy mentioned, the SS (or rather, the RR/RC system that SS now uses) probably handles it best. But its really minor. Another solution would be making the names more nondescript, so instead of leather armor the game calls it "Rudimentary Armament" (or something) going to "Professional Armor" to "Specialized" and then finally varying tiers of "elite" or "advanced".

[IGdood]

Any chance we might be seeing a mercenary legionary unit type similar to the Veteranii from RTW: BI, or will that sort of tactic/technology remain Romuli exclusive?

[Massive_attack]

In theory you could take a legion unit and just make them a mercenary in order to not waste a slot, but I have to ask... why ? Thats a core legion unit, its kind of like letting other people play with the heart and soul of the faction

Edit (the above applies even if a new unit was made, its still a legionary unit, its still basically the cultural property of the Romuli)

IMHO if you want legions, play the Romuli faction. Its like letting other factions build Faust line infantry as mercs.

[Eohelm]

I actually think I made a similar argument that has exactly the Faustian Linemen as the subject a bit earlier on in this thread.

Nein, it was on another thread, but the theme was similar. Someone asking if Linemen might premiere as a mercenary unit, or units like Linemen. More advanced musketeers, or maybe mercenary riflemen.

"Men of the Reich who are in the army are in the army either for life or until they are discharged. It's a professional army, and I doubt there are many ways out of it.

Now, if you're in an army that has such good weaponry, and you're discharged, I'm not quite sure that the army would let you keep your shiny rifle, or your lineman musket (which is still a musket, but always seems to outperform other muskets in the game for some reason), because an enemy might hire you and get your technology.

So veterans or men who started fighting as mercenaries would have the older age weapons, because the Faustians probably wouldn't want potential enemies like the Valiente or the Sycorax (who are well known for copying their enemies) going at them with dedicated rifle units.

That's my personal opinion, of course.

Also, as an aside to lore, wouldn't that mean that TFON would have to get rid of units? I'm under the impression that mercenaries also take up unit space"

That was my two cents on Linemen and Riflemen, and it makes similar sense to the Legionarii. If their military works so well, why on earth would they let mercenaries fighting in the same style go about trading their weapon technology with their employers? Just doesn't make much sense.

Whoot, M_A.

[IGdood]

I understand.

I was just thinking of the Veteranii mercs in RTW: BI since they got to keep their equipment for some reason.

[Eohelm]

I dunno how to explain that. I don't know enough aout Roman History to know if that example actually existed. In all honesty, it may have just been CA taking a few creative liberties. We all know how much they like to do that.

[Massive_attack]

In republican times I can kind of see it, since in Republican rome you bought your own armor, and naturally went home with it. It makes sense in that context. In the context of the Roman empire ? Depends. If you got booted out for serving your full time, if I recall correctly you usually got a small patch of land and walked off with your armor to boot, but I could be wrong there- it would hardly be economical if that was the case.

More likely I think, is in the example you cite, a bunch of old vets want to get back into the legion because it turns out living in peace-time as a citizen isnt all its cracked up to be, and rome, needing bodies, allows them to form cohorts and resumes paying them wages, arming and armoring them as they would a normal unit, but not training them, since they are already combat ready- hence why they would cost more but be recruited immediately without need for the 'proper facilities'

The problem with this execution is obvious however: what happens when a non roman (or non romuli) in this case, comes into Romuli lands and recruits veteran legionary mercs. That scenario is unrealistic; ex legionaries probably wouldnt join up with foreign or even hostile powers, and if they did, they certainly wouldnt be equipped like classic legionaries. Sadly, to my knowledge mercenaries can not be made faction specific, only region specific. Unless I am somehow missing something and they can be. They can also be made religion specific (im thinking the crusade unit mechanic), but in this particular case thats not really applicable.

Im rambling, point is its kind of awkward and it would cost a unit slot to do right. If my memory still serves were already maxed out.

Dont get me wrong, legion units were cool and you can never have too many, but it would probably hurt somewhere else to get another unit in.

Unless TFON heavily optimized V4 rosters to the point where there is now room for new units, but I have no way of knowing that, so I assume it is not the case.

...I havent argued in this thread for months. Feels good, man.
(Damn, didnt address the Faustian line infantry thing. Hmm, this link more or less sums up my thoughts on your reasoning though)

[TheFirstONeill]

Each faction needs to have uunits which are their signature units, Romuli- legions, Faust- line infantry ect. There will not be merc version of these units.

[Eohelm]

...I havent argued in this thread for months. Feels good, man.
(Damn, didnt address the Faustian line infantry thing. Hmm, this link more or less sums up my thoughts on your reasoning though)

Having any argument where people don't flame feels good, whether or not I lose or win. But that's just me. Despite the fact that I was agreeing with your original claim, just adding to someone's mentioning of Linemen.

But I was voted "most spirited debater" in my High-school's "Hall of Fame", so maybe I'm just wierd.

As for the link. I lol'd. I, however, might go so far as to say I am not out of my element.

[Lord Golog]

I've noticed that the gunpoweder units in Thera seem to be more accurate and powerful than their equivalents in other modules, but have a much lower rate of fire, and also do not fire in unison. I wonder whether this is a stylistic choice or if it was done for gameplay balance.

[Agamemnon]

Well, on rate of fire I really haven't noticed any change, but I have noticed that they don't fire in unison. Now, while having 50+ men do the exact same thing at the EXACT same time is very silly, I do wish they fired in a real volley.

[TheFirstONeill]

Well, on rate of fire I really haven't noticed any change, but I have noticed that they don't fire in unison. Now, while having 50+ men do the exact same thing at the EXACT same time is very silly, I do wish they fired in a real volley.

Fire by rank makes firearm units in MTWII useless, as they will not fire unless all the men have line of fire on the target unit.

[Agamemnon]

True, it does, but can't there be something in between that works?

[TheFirstONeill]

True, it does, but can't there be something in between that works?

Like what ? Either they fire by rank or they dont, how can there be anything inbetwwen those two states ? The current system is used because it makes best use of firearms given the limitations of the engine, which is fairness was not designed to be a primarly gunpowder driven engine.

[Agamemnon]

I meant isn't there a way to make them fire in volley, but not in rank?

[TheFirstONeill]

I meant isn't there a way to make them fire in volley, but not in rank?

To fire a volley they all need to have LOS with the enemy, that is the very basis of the issue.

[Agamemnon]

Alright, sorry. I misunderstood.

[Lord Golog]

Like what ? Either they fire by rank or they dont, how can there be anything inbetwwen those two states ? The current system is used because it makes best use of firearms given the limitations of the engine, which is fairness was not designed to be a primarly gunpowder driven engine.

Only issue I have with this system is that soldiers take a long time between raising their weapon and actually firing. They'll spend about three seconds pointing their gun at the enemy before triggering. For accurate shooters like rifles this makes perfect sense, but for lower-tier muskets and arquebuses I see little purpose in a soldier taking so much time to aim such inaccurate weapons that rely on saturation of fire and not precision.

[TheFirstONeill]

Only issue I have with this system is that soldiers take a long time between raising their weapon and actually firing. They'll spend about three seconds pointing their gun at the enemy before triggering. For accurate shooters like rifles this makes perfect sense, but for lower-tier muskets and arquebuses I see little purpose in a soldier taking so much time to aim such inaccurate weapons that rely on saturation of fire and not precision.

It does however balance the unit, to stop them being a jugganaut. The musketeers and line infantry have a small delay of 20, only Arq have a long delay (100). Remember that they all use the same loading animation, the longer fire delay simulates or compensates the slower loading drills that the lower level units would be capable of.

The other way to go at it would be to lower the small fire delay (20 about the same used betwen sword slashes), but reduce the range and accuarcy, but this would mean up-close lower teir unit would be more powerful than elites

I believe the current system makes the unit more useful. All in all I think the current balance is the best.