Unit Stats and Battlesystem in AUH?

[Spike]

Well, currently I was still wonder about AUH Battle System and statistics, would it follow :

A. Attack system?
*) Rock-Paper-Scissors Vanilla concept : every unit types has clearly obvious advantage and disadvantage against certain unit types, battle will be basically the same as vanilla kingdoms. or
*) Damage Physics concept : every weapons is being scaled as real life physics do... calculating force potential, momentum, and reach advantage of said weapons, so cataphracts could easily run down spear militia because they have no hope to bypass the thick armour. or

B. Battle time lengthening?
*) "Medium-Short" battle (normal of M2TW) : which peasants and levies will quickly run away, and another units soon afterwards.
*) Long battle (Low attack) concept : attack value is greatly reduced compared with vanilla, gave units overall almost uniform performance, and in turns, create longer battle, especially when comes with morale boost. or
*) Long battle (High defense) concept : defensive points are going beefed up, especially armour and defense skills. Also create longer battle, especially with morale boost. or
*) Longer battle (combinated) : made even longer battle... but in turns, it somewhat annoys when it comes to siege in town square...

C. Unit Classification & Strength?
*) Absolute : Elites are bein very good compared with levies, a small numbers of high quality units should be able to hold and ever beat back amassed levies single handedly. or
*) Relative : Elites are comparably good, but not that much, levies are rather bad, but not that much, quality should have less gap, but still considerable one. or
*) Little difference : Elites and Levies are just barely different in terms of overall strength, the elites are goin expensive and not so effective for a good cause.

D. Unit Pricing Levels?
*) Cheap units, cheap upkeep : Massive battles could be afforded easily. or
*) Cheap upkeep, expensive training : Recruiting armies take significant cost more than just maintaining one, upkeep are rather cheap, but training new units should be a bit painful. or
*) Cheap training, expensive upkeep : You can recruit numbers of massed levies, but their wages will tax you heavily afterwards, Challange! Challange! or
*) Expensive : You got the brain, you got the touhest challange available.

E. Unit battle cost/performance?
*) You'll got what you pay : ... better unit are generally more expensive, but it is worth them
*) Expensive high class : high class units are less cost effective
*) Historical Cost approximation : allready done researches about daily life and prioce of military equipments, and got that.


Sorry if a little bit long, but I'm curious what will AUH statistics become....

[hpsauce13]

well i have no idea which one it will be but personally i prefer the RR/RC setup as used in stainless steel (and some others i think) which i suppose would be a combination of mainly these two

Long battle (Low attack) concept : attack value is greatly reduced compared with vanilla, gave units overall almost uniform performance, and in turns, create longer battle, especially when comes with morale boost

Absolute : Elites are bein very good compared with levies, a small numbers of high quality units should be able to hold and ever beat back amassed levies single handedly

it feels for me an accurate representation of the levels of skill, training and arms and armour and how they would come together.
e.g a unit of mailed knights can easily decimate a whole flank of a levy army if not dealt with very carefully, but have a unit of javilinmen take a single shot at them whilst still and you could lose half your unit

[Vaz]

Personally, I much prefer the lower attack, high defence method. I know Yelu has done some work for BC, and thats the method they use, and I like that method as well.

I suppose it would make sense to use that in that case. BC is one of the more balanced mods in game play (until you throw elephants into the mix - they're tough to kill normally, but they die at the rumour of javelins).

I never really got in RR/RC. It never really did arrows well enough for me - even units wearing full pplate armour would most likely be knocked off their horse/feet, whereas they would just run straight through the arrow hail.

[nhinhonhinho]

Honestly i don't like RR/RC much. The reason is i often try to make a "standard" army with most of my troop can train/retrain everywhere. I suggest to make many medium tier of troop can train/retrain anywhere while late proffesional,elite and unique units can only be train in the mainland. I follow a term: "main force is a standard force with the support of levies,local troop and have a small number of elite force". Btw the modders can make some kind of conversion. The more population influence by your religious the more proffesional troop you can have

About battle i agree to long battle. Lower attack and increase defence. However not too long battle. There are no way the crappy levies and peasant can stand a gain heavy cavalry charge or elite troop for too long !

I also like the epic battles. It's more "Asia". The battles often fought with huge amount of troop . Each battle can event reach a few hundred thousand of troop for each side (at least in the historical books and report)!! Many battles/turn with large amount of common troop is more interesting than a groups of super soldiers fighting the other. The large battles also make elite troop generals individual ability (trail) tactic and strategic to shine .

I also wonder will the cavalry dominate the battlefield or not. I thinks infantry is the core of army (not mention to the Mongol or factions like that)

That's just my suggestion. All belong to the modders team

[Yelü Dashi]

At the moment we have made no decisions about what kind of battle system AUH will employ. If there are some of you that have experience with modding/balancing unit stats and would be interested in the joining the team to help develop this aspect of gameplay - please get in touch.

Cheers.

[Spike]

At the moment we have made no decisions about what kind of battle system AUH will employ. If there are some of you that have experience with modding/balancing unit stats and would be interested in the joining the team to help develop this aspect of gameplay - please get in touch.

Cheers.

I'd like to help, but I only have serious experience in balancing unit statistics in RTW based satistics. I did try to develop an improved and balanced Kingdoms battle statistics that includes historical cost approximation for Siam Total War... but that wasn't real experience until that was comig out...

[athanaric]

Have you considered taking a look at the new BC stat system that gamegeek2 has apparently implemented? It is, as far as I can tell, based on Europa Barbarorum's system, which I have had good experiences with.

[Augustus Lucifer]

We're still open to possibilities. The bad thing about battle systems is they're rather difficult to balance, compared to other things. The good thing is that they work with a limited number of files that provide that balance(EDU mainly, Battle AI files, projectile files somewhat, movement speed modifiers a little, campaign balance indirectly). All save the last can be interchanged fairly easily, so we could toy with different approaches and see which produces the best results.

Germanicu5' approach to AI seems likely to be most similar to what we'd want, as he has done considerable scientific research. Still, there are things to be taken away from the AI's of GrandVIZ, Lusted, xeryx, et al, and there's still plenty of trailblazing, especially in terms of AI profile differentiation and depth. As far as the EDU stats are concerned, there are possibilities here as well. Aradan's EDU-Matic is a very likely possibility. In fact, EDU-Matic is employed by Aradan in the balancing of EBII's stats. It's a very versatile approach that focuses on defining 'elements' that make up a unit and derivatives of those and then generating stats using defined formulas, all of which can be customized to suit a given mod.

Of course, neither of those enterprises resolve themselves, so if you'd like to help out Strategos Lykos, we do need someone working and researching in that area, so please contact Yelu via PM if you haven't already.

[Spike]

I'll consider that after Finished my M2TWK Battle Statistics testings for Siam TW Statistics

[Babygod22]

I would vote for very long, big size battles over fast ones. (Low atk, strong def and morale, increase units size to 200+)
And a realistic damage system like in Stainless Steel, cavalry should be able to run through weak levy and peasant troops.

Please don't give the elites unit only 50-70 men like the new Broken Cresent.

[Spike]

I would vote for very long, big size battles over fast ones. (Low atk, strong def and morale, increase units size to 200+)
And a realistic damage system like in Stainless Steel, cavalry should be able to run through weak levy and peasant troops.

Please don't give the elites unit only 50-70 men like the new Broken Cresent.

agreed.... but I think you should put up with a bit higher attack so siege battles won't be a boring one...

umm, and the bolded part... maybe you can give elite less men, but made sure their combat effectiveness higher as well, Gamegeek has taken his stats to far and made elite units completely worthless...

[Babygod22]

agreed.... but I think you should put up with a bit higher attack so siege battles won't be a boring one...

Agree

no, elite whatever, they are just human, I think gamegeek stat for them is good enough,It's just that their size is too small so they are not reliable, I perfer the Stainless Steel ways of unit size: cavalry 60-100, missle 120-200+, and infantry 120-200+
Yes it maybe inacurate to have such size for elites units but who gives a ..., would you like to play a battle with massive stacks of troops or a tiny one?

actually, I think the reason why elites are worthless to you is probably not because of their stat, but because their size is too small and thefore become less efficient when you considering their upkeeps, while the peasant and levy level troops is cheap and can actually resist an elite cavalry charge for a bit, I think levy and peasant troops should be as weak as the middle east peasant and levy in SS.

[nhinhonhinho]

Year! Elite units still a human so they shouldn't fight like SRG in XGM. However because these men was trained and veteran so 1 units can takeout 2-3 standard unit alone and can hold (hold not destroy) their own again a bunch of enemy troop in significant time. I think we can reduce the number of elite unit players can train but their number is the same with normal units (i.e 120)

I would love to fight the big battle and true "Total war" with many stack fighting the other.

I think peasant and levy didn't have to be too weak. They can actually "hold" the line a little bit not jut standing and rout after the first cavalry charge

And once more thing is missile. Can missile troop win a battle on their own? Or they are just support units?

[naq]

I want a woman general riding an war elephant as Dai Viet elite unit.

[nhinhonhinho]

No no the mod is in the time of Lý-Trần and there are no woman general in that time. Dai Viet units roster is completed already too. Beside that most of Dai Viet elephant units come from highlander i think and Dai Viet general mounted on horseback

[Rahwana]

women who took warrior's path often disguise themselves as male... right?

[Heart of Madness]

I would relax, this is a good team that knows what they're doing. They won't screw it up like they (Creative Assembly) did in vanilla.

[freazy]

When will the mod be released?

in 2010? or 2011?

[Spike]

When will the mod be released?

in 2010? or 2011?

definiely not 2010 unless some miracles happened...


BTW, the battle system in AUH will be "what you got is what you pay"

[Alavaria]

women who took warrior's path often disguise themselves as male... right?

Sounds like time for a general's version of the vanilla priests' "secretly female" trait. ^___^ You could even leave the effect in (+1 Piety)