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Thread: Isengard Tips/Strats?

  1. #1
    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Isengard Tips/Strats?

    I've been playing a game of Isengard for campaign and it feels really difficult compare to Sylvan Elves or the Dwarves...

    First is the lack of family tree that is killing the Isengard economy. Without baby makers aka faction family, Isengard barely, if ever, gets to expand its leadership, and for the most part I'm running over half of my settlements without any generals! This is hurting my city growth/income way too much.

    Second is the position. I got High Elves, Free Ppl and Rohan surrounding me, and if they decides to gang up on me it pretty much feels like a GG. Thankfully the orcs can keep the northern factions fairly busy, but this doesn't seem like a guarantee and hence Isengard feels really unprotected.

    Third is minor but still I guess I should just bring it up. I'm loving the pikes and berserkers (feels like berserkers actually make decent anti calv because of their high hp to eat a charge ), and would love wargs too but I'm having trouble using them. They got a pretty awesome charge but unlike other calvs, I can't pull them out after a charge without losing a huge chunk of wargs. Also how should I use crossbows in general? They don't have the angle that archers do so leaving them behind pikes didn't look like it worked (saw lot of blood squirting out from back of my pikes ), they move a bit slower compared to other range and they don't have skirmish either so... Should I leave them between melee units in slightly "broken" line fashion like --_--_--_--_-- ?

    So essentially, economy and diplomacy aspect of Isengard feels really difficult for me atm, with few unit mechanics that I'm puzzled by. Any other Uruk lovers wanna help me out here?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Put you're crossbows A little behind and to the sides of you'r line. So they have a clear shot at the sides of the troops that are attacking you'rs. Make sure you leave some protection with them though. This has a couple of benifits these reserves will be fresh while the rest are tired, 2 they will protect you from flanking and will be able to flank if given the opportunity
    3 protect your crossbows.
    P.s. if you wait for the invasion on rohan then build you're self a big army with free upkeep and conquer cities along the way, should go well

    The Orcs of Gundabad Erin go Bragh FROGS

    When I came back to Dublin I was court marshaled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence"
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    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Quote Originally Posted by David93 View Post
    P.s. if you wait for the invasion on rohan then build you're self a big army with free upkeep and conquer cities along the way, should go well
    Any ideas on good anti Rohan stack composition? I always run out of steam after 2 cities and then Rohan steamrolls me with its VH army production (like half a stack a turn).

    Edit: did not go well, by the time invasion started Rohan was rocking 4 full stacks, and if I join the invasion they really ignore everyone but me.
    Last edited by Gaizokubanou; September 01, 2010 at 03:52 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    No, i've never played them, so probably couldn't give you very good advice, but i would go with as much urak infantry, pikes, crossbows and beserkars. But that's just my opinion.

    The Orcs of Gundabad Erin go Bragh FROGS

    When I came back to Dublin I was court marshaled in my absence and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence"
    Brendan Behan
    The Irish won an Empire
    The Scots ran an Empire
    The English lost an Empire

    "When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, 'Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
    - Quentin Crisp

    There is one weapon that the British cannot take away from us: we can ignore them.
    - Michael Collins

    They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken.
    - Bobby Sands

  5. #5
    jản's Avatar █ kept in suspense █
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    //

    Quote Originally Posted by David93 View Post
    No, i've never played them, so probably couldn't give you very good advice, but i would go with as much urak infantry, pikes, crossbows and beserkars. But that's just my opinion.
    Well that would be a good idea if you are beyond the barracks event around turn 50 (or was it 80?).
    But he wants to know how

    But now to the help:

    In general Isengard is one of the rushing factions. Just try to conquer and loot as many settlements
    as possible - even if you have to abandon them right after - because Isengrad is an evil faction. so
    no problem there . You should expand in direction of the western coast between high elven and
    rohirish territories and in north east direction (fangorn ...) - these are kinda save in the beginning.

    But i think there is no need to say that you should protect Isengard at all costs.

    What you also can try is to make/keep peace with your "good" neighbors.

    But if you want to fight you ass of than you should pop out and "waste" as much snagas as possible
    in the starting turns and shred them. Their javelins are amazing against rohan cavalry if using the
    "two lines formation" and do a lot of damage to other units as well. Dont be scarred to loose a battle
    and a full stack of snagas - the damage you will have done is more worth than the snagas.

    go here to check the isengard units: http://totalwar.honga.net/faction.ph...ge&f2=isengard

    And most definitely use Saruman - de has great traits and retinues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou
    Wargs ... I can't pull them out after a charge without losing a huge
    you have to activate the defence mode for wargs if you want to pull them out of a melee fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaizokubanou
    Crossbows ... They don't have the angle that archers do so leaving them behind pikes didn't look like it worked
    Direct shooting line is the key - even for archers. Realize that by forming a wide angled "U" with the range units at the bottom and two melee units at the sides.

    //

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    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Is there anything I can do about my economy to have this suicide stack of snagas? Even a stack of nothing but snagas are huge strain on my economy (basically if I get a stack up, the upkeep stops me from doing much else) and I can't recover from losing a stack like you suggested because on VH every one of my "good" faction neighbors can outproduce even my snagas. Are you sure having a suidcide stack is even feasible on VH jan?

    Thanks about wargs and snagas in general.

    Edit: ok if high elf declares war on me before 2nd barrack event (basically a lot of time for me to build up) I think it's pretty much gg for me as Isengard unless I auto resolve all my battles.

    On range they outshoot me (which is cool cause they are suppose to outshoot everyone). So I closed in with minimum losses by distracting their shoots on poor snaga skirmishers.

    On melee they outmelee me with their archers . Keep in mind at this point my best melee are those rare guards which I can't produce enough, so my best melee option is... raiders? It's ridiculous how archers kite my melee in skirmish mode and my melee units lose stamina way faster so once they fight it's pretty much gg from loss of stamina/people from getting shot at.

    More and more it feels like Isengard is just screwed in campaign.
    Last edited by Gaizokubanou; September 01, 2010 at 08:47 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Its kind of a paradox but the best way to take on the HE is by using snaga archers and snaga skirmishers especially early game. You basically have to get into a shooting match with them. Even if snaga get outranged they are more cost effective and easy to replace than even light elven archers. As for dealing with their melee, just fire on any melee that gets too close. Same with cavalry. Have some snaga skirmishers take the brunt of the charge then shoot at it until they're gone. It would probably help the range discrepancy if you are on higher ground than he is. If not you have to run your snaga into range. Your melee here will mostly be to stop his melee when he throws it at you don't bother chasing his archers.

    If you've had a chance to build up then you can probably field these large snaga armies. Also don't be afraid to lose them.

    On the strat map you should have probably gotten the minhirriath region thats one of the coastal regions with a river which can only be crossed by two bridges. You have to guard those bridges.

    I'd like to add that when fighting against Rohan, a good unit to use is the Dunlending clansmen, because they are cheap spearmen and can counter horses effectively. Of course as much as possible try to take the fight to Rohan's settlements where horses are more vulnerable.

    @ jan

    what's a "two line formation?" is that literally a stretching a unit to the thinnest line (2 rows)?

    And is the wide angle U like this?:

    x = melee
    A = archer

    xx xx
    AAA

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    jản's Avatar █ kept in suspense █
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3MKA View Post
    @ jan

    what's a "two line formation?" is that literally a stretching a unit to the thinnest line (2 rows)?

    And is the wide angle U like this?:

    x = melee
    A = archer

    xx xx
    AAA
    ////

    Here is what i would do:

    X = Melee units
    S = Snaga Skirmishers (disable Skirmishing mode, where they automatically run away if an enemy unit get to close)
    A = Snaga Archers (no fire arrows!)
    B = Ballista
    (----X----) = mellee unit in loose and wide formation

    Two Line Formation:
    Code:
    S S S S S S S
    
    SSSSSSSSSSSSS
    -------------------------------

    U - Formation
    Code:
        xxxxxxx
        xxxxxxx
        x x x x x
    
    X               X
     X             X
      X           X
                   (----X----) 
    
        S S S S S
          AAAAA
    B                   B
    ... and when the enemy attacks, he'll go for the melee units. than you have to close the formation to something like that:
    (and if enemy units go for the snagas use the (X) to get between them before they reach your units.)
    Code:
        x xx  xx x  x
    
         X  xX
      Xx x   x X
    X  x        xX
       (----X----)
    
       S S S S S  
         AAAAA
    B                  B
    ////
    Last edited by jản; September 02, 2010 at 06:26 AM.

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    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    (__x__)
    You sure you want to use this symbol? :-)

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    jản's Avatar █ kept in suspense █
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    You sure you want to use this symbol? :-)
    why not?

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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?


  12. #12

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Well if its there to stop the enemy charging into the very vulnerable archers/ skirmishers then its pretty appropriate.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    I can't pull them out after a charge without losing a huge chunk of wargs.

    You probably shouldn't; Wargs all have the 'Cause Fear' trait, which saps morale by their very presence. You want them hanging around so the enemy break sooner. What's frustrating is that Isengard has to wait longer than most to field them, most warg-users need only the ranks one 'Stables' to build Wargs, Isengard needs Rank 2 by default.

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    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodly View Post
    I can't pull them out after a charge without losing a huge chunk of wargs.

    You probably shouldn't; Wargs all have the 'Cause Fear' trait, which saps morale by their very presence. You want them hanging around so the enemy break sooner. What's frustrating is that Isengard has to wait longer than most to field them, most warg-users need only the ranks one 'Stables' to build Wargs, Isengard needs Rank 2 by default.
    No I really have to pull the wargs out. Outside of charge, if wargs stay in melee, even against simple archer regiment I'm talking about half of wargs dying before route ever happens. Anything bit stronger, we are looking at wargs routing from suffering heavy casualties.

    If you've had a chance to build up then you can probably field these large snaga armies. Also don't be afraid to lose them.
    Buildup is impossible now for some reason. Earlier games I actually had no one declare war on me but now for past 4 games, Either the elves, free pp or Rohan DoW on me by turn 30 ~ 40 (no I don't have any units running around their town, nor use spies against them, and with no diplomat not much I can do to improve relations), at which point I'll be lucky to field a stack and a half, while as you know on VH they have more (and MUCH more incoming under the fog of war). I can take on free ppl and Rohan 1 on 1 pretty well, but elves always jump in while I am able to maintain a stalemate. And elves alone are making it impossible this early.

    I don't see how losing a stack is "ok" even if they are nothing but the cheapest unit. I'll have Isengard and maybe 3 other towns for production this early in the game (that's 3 + 3 = 6 recruiting slots, maybe 7 if Duneard is upgraded), meaning if I lost my stack out there on front line, I can kiss all my cities other than those 4 good bye (because units trained from those towns won't have time to group up to head out to outer edge of my empire), which means loss of economy, which means next time I fight them I have even less units.

    Does U formation even work now against the AI? All they do is making a super long line with their melee/cavalries, and whenever I tried U formation in the past they just shifted their entire army to one of the melee wings to flank it. I mean for it to work, I'm basically asking the enemies to flank themselves by running straight into the center. Is there a useful bait for that purpose?
    Last edited by Gaizokubanou; September 02, 2010 at 12:43 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Secret weapon for Isengard is to call for invasion on Rohan. While Rohan is busy defending from Sauron’s hordes, use that time to expand into their territory. Otherwise I don’t see how you can survive as Isengard on VH.

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    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grobar View Post
    Secret weapon for Isengard is to call for invasion on Rohan. While Rohan is busy defending from Sauron’s hordes, use that time to expand into their territory. Otherwise I don’t see how you can survive as Isengard on VH.
    In theory I see this working, except that AI Rohan will ignore the call for invasion and just dead set focus on player controlled Isengard. And half of the time I literally see Rohan somehow repelling 3 stacks of invasion forces, which gives them some insanely experienced stack to attack me with.

    Last Isengard campaign I actually captured one of their city, and killed 3 stacks with my snaga stack (mix of skirmishers and archers), only to face endless waves of mini stacks just pouring out of that FOW where I literally ran out of soldiers to fend them off with (as in even the snagas were under out of queue for production for every city that can make them).

    I think it's pretty clear for me that Isengard campaign is utterly broken. I can only imagine how both orc factions will fare.

    As a fix a small change can make Isengard a lot more playable imo; Turn Duneard into a city so that Isengard can have a diplomat out. With a diplomat player can actually attempt to maintain peace/stop a war after some gains have been made. Continuous war against Rohan as Isengard on VH/VH is completely broken as player controlled Isengard is severely limited in production of its cannon fodder units, while AI Rohan can spam mid tier units against you. Fighting off AI VH horde works well for factions that can pull off low casualty wins after another, but for a faction that is filled with cannon fodder roster, this creates impossible situation.
    Last edited by Gaizokubanou; September 02, 2010 at 10:38 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Has anyone actually tried and did well with Isengard on VH/VH here consistently? I had few lucky brakes myself (one time no one attacked me so I even got an alliance with Rohan which let me expand up north) but nothing that can work with any sort of consistency and ALWAYS at mercy of AI Elf/Erianor/Rohan declaring war on me or not. So I'm looking for something that's sensibly repeatable strategy, not just a one time fluke type of deal.

  18. #18
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Nope. I was bent on trying Isengard and having played TW-games since STW I assumed I could handle VH/VH.
    Not so.
    Playing on H/H is enough.

    And using the "Secter Weapon Of Isengard" as in calling an Invasion on Edoras/Hornburg just made it worse even when I didn't join as the meager evil AI-stacks that sieged it only brought the garrison scripts into play and they where chased off.
    The newly created Rohan stack then turned on poor old Saruman and his whitefaced boys...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Isengard definatly needs a boost in the next patch they start with only 2 cities and a castle no spy and any diplomat many turns off. It must be the hardest start for the evil factions and its probably the hardest start for any faction.

    Sure if they survive the first 50 turns they get some nice units but surviving that long is tough and if you loose your castle Isengard you may as well restart.

    The best way to try to survive is to capture the two rebel towns near you then hope that neither the HE or Eriador attack you while you are fighting Rohan.
    Last edited by Alex-ander; September 14, 2010 at 12:31 PM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Isengard Tips/Strats?

    Its really a big delma for me about the garrison script. I want a challenge, and I want the AI to be able to keep their iconic settlements, but they just arnt capable of using it right. AI armies attacking wont bring enough to actually fight the newly spawned stack, and then the AI that just got the new stack can easily afford to keep it and it moves it out the next turn to do some serious damage. Playing as Isengaurd is rediculously hard and I never even managed to expand even a bit effectively. You cant break into 2 smaller forces to take towns, none of your troops are strong enough. The urukkai are supposed to be stronger than a man with more more stamina, but they are weaker in the game in nearly all cases and they lack the numbers of other orc factions to make up for it

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