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Thread: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

  1. #1

    Default Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Okay, this is basically an analysis of what I have seen in both my Austrian and Spanish campaigns. The purpose of this will be to address the faults I think exist within the current infamy system that were not that damaging in EUIII and HoI 3. For my evidence, I will use my experiences in Victoria II, EUIII, and HoI 3, while keeping in mind the game mechanics for each game.

    1. Infamy Increase vs Infamy Decrease-

    Infamy has always been something that one could obtain rather quickly. In Victoria II, one obtains 20 for every annexation, 10 for state acquisition, and 9 for seizure of colonies. EUIII had it increase by 3 for every province that you annexed (also the casus bell system would have that increase or decrease). EUIII had a balance out mechanic in the form of advisors that allowed for a decrease in infamy. Diplomats would decrease the infamy based on their experience. Victoria does not appear to have the same mechanic and instead, leaves the player constantly suffering penalty after penalty for their conquests. In fact, considering infamy is obtained for just about any military objective on Victoria II's chart, doing simple things like free another nation can land you into the deep depths of infamy. With no real sure fire way of lowering the infamy by other means other than your leaders statistics, Victoria II becomes extremely punishing. What needs to be done is the addition of a system that allows you to either host a diplomatic meeting to decrease your infamy, or offering to pay to restore lands destroyed during the war. By having a sure fire way of reducing infamy, the game can become more enjoyable without being a quagmire of punitive punishment for expansion.

    2. Removal of Punitive "Police" Nations

    This is based on my personal opinions on how I see other nations reacting to my wars. As Spain, my war with the uncivilized Morocco and Haiti were met with constant wars with France. After constant reloads, I finally was able to reach a limit without punitive punishment from the big, blue, police state, France. Next, I decided to wage war with the Turks after a decade or so of peace. The war occurred after Austria begged me for assistance. The British evidently did not like that and has declared war on me. Russia also quickly declared war on my after i resolved my war with Turkey with the annexation of Libya. What surprised me most of all was Russia's attack on me, considering I just slapped around his arch-nemesis. England, made no sense considering that I have always worked to have peaceful relations with the nation. Yet, the cumulative conquest so of Haiti, Northern Morocco, and Libya evidently triggered the punitive code in the AI, and the biggest baddest world powers declared war on me. This sort of police state delegation has some major flaws. 1. The AI never really does this to other AI. Prussia has been involved in dozens of wars (I know, I fought him on many occasions), yet he has not received any sort of containment punishment. The same goes for Austria who has managed to declare war on everything and lose at everything. The cumulative infamy obtain from Prussia and Austria's constant fighting, along with Prussia's annexation of Austrian territory should earn them punitive punishments. However that never happens. 2. Delegating countries like Russia, England, France, and Prussia to police state power does not create a balance to conquer happy characters, it actually creates an imbalance by allowing these countries to wage wars with incurring a penalty. England is already extremely powerful right off the bat, why allow it to become stronger by allowing it to be the world's judge? England can now go about punishing those who conquer a lot with out being punished to an extensive degree. Essentially the police state forces everyone smaller than the police states to play fair, but always be weaker than the police states who can conquer them. 3. EUIII already had an excellent system. If you conquered too much, your NEIGHBORS hated you. As the Teutonic Knights, I always could expect a punitive war from Poland, but sure as hell never from Spain. In Victoria II, I can always expect a punitive war with France or England, while also expecting punitive wars from Russia. That's not right, because why would Spanish conquests on the other side of Europe possible cause Russia to attack it?


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  2. #2

    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    The police one makes sense. You are becoming powerful, the big powers dont like you ruining the balance of power. Friend or not, in real life you would have a crimean war situation on your hands. Although the war goal for that should be changed so as to avoid chain dowing.



  3. #3
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    I don't think there is anything wrong about the infamy system - it is 19th Century, when human right started to take place, not some 9th Century when you can conquer one and another states while everyone does not care about your action.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    i'm torn with the infamy.

    I do think that certain things like liberating nations and removing satellites cost too much infamy and I think releasing satellites should remove infamy.
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    MehemtAli_Pasha's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    i share my thoughts with the above post.

    would also like to add that a 10 infamy per state is too much. there are times where you wish to snatch some pieces from a great power, but you will find yourself gaining huge amount of infamy for little gain.

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    Doyle141's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    i'm torn with the infamy.

    I do think that certain things like liberating nations and removing satellites cost too much infamy and I think releasing satellites should remove infamy.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by MehemtAli_Pasha View Post
    i share my thoughts with the above post.

    would also like to add that a 10 infamy per state is too much. there are times where you wish to snatch some pieces from a great power, but you will find yourself gaining huge amount of infamy for little gain.
    This. I would write up what I want to say instead of quoting, but I'm too tired

  7. #7
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    I find the infamy system okay as is. It is the 19th-20th century, nobody is going to end up conquering the world (or even Europe). The game is more about managing your economy, diplomatic standing, and population than it is going on the warpath. It is not designed to allow you to conquer too much, and doing so should be met with extreme and overwhelming resistance, as I believe the current system simulates. I'm not saying the infamy system is perfect or doesn't need adjusting, but I don't think it needs to allow more leniency for war-like nations in the 19th/20th century.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    i'm torn with the infamy.

    I do think that certain things like liberating nations and removing satellites cost too much infamy and I think releasing satellites should remove infamy.
    If you're involved in a war that was declared on you, and you start kicking ass, you should not have to spend so much infamy on liberating countries to break up the nation that attacked you.

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    MehemtAli_Pasha's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by CamilleBonparte View Post
    ...The game is more about managing your economy, diplomatic standing, and population than it is going on the warpath. It is not designed to allow you to conquer too much, and doing so should be met with extreme and overwhelming resistance, as I believe the current system simulates. I'm not saying the infamy system is perfect or doesn't need adjusting, but I don't think it needs to allow more leniency for war-like nations in the 19th/20th century.
    true. i like how the game constrains the player from doing world conquests, but this game offers a lot of nice diplomatic options only infamy stands in the way of taking advantage of them.

    as for me, all bugs and imbalances aside, the one thing that is really needed for this game to gain my award of "Epicness" is local markets. i dont understand how my locally produced goods would be sold to the world market first so i can rebuy them from there.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    I agree, it doesn't make sense. You are "liberating" a nation.

    All in all I think the infamy system is showing its limitations here. Like if you are England and you liberate the poles from Russia it would likely piss off Prussia, Austria, and obviously Russia. However other nations likely would think you highly and others should not care.

    In EU2 if you did actions toward one nation it would have repercussions with other nations depending on their relations with that nation. Like if you helped that nation out and they are in good standing with Europe your relations with those nations would increase. If they were hated it would decrease. I think that kind of system would work better for liberation of nation than just some arbitrary infamy.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    I agree, it doesn't make sense. You are "liberating" a nation.
    You are liberating someone and then enslave them - everyone knows what you are thinking, so stop acting like a fake knight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by charles the hammer View Post
    The police one makes sense. You are becoming powerful, the big powers dont like you ruining the balance of power. Friend or not, in real life you would have a crimean war situation on your hands. Although the war goal for that should be changed so as to avoid chain dowing.
    I understand, but I am approaching it from the side of balance. As in, it makes the strong nations stronger when they need to pull their Big Brother antics.


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    blank's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by Teutonic Joe View Post
    I understand, but I am approaching it from the side of balance. As in, it makes the strong nations stronger when they need to pull their Big Brother antics.
    Well Britain is ridiculous as it is. As an example from my current campaign, by 1895 they have 3200 industry, while the nearest competitor has 570 (!). Military-wise, they have about 1000, second best has about 500.

    Regarding infamy, if they keep the system unchanged then there should be more CB's. The game is still about 19th century (mostly), not the 21st. Who wants to sit there and build factories for 100 years? Maybe rename it to Canned Food Tycoon then
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by blank View Post
    Regarding infamy, if they keep the system unchanged then there should be more CB's. The game is still about 19th century (mostly), not the 21st. Who wants to sit there and build factories for 100 years? Maybe rename it to Canned Food Tycoon then
    That is exactly why you get far less infamy when you annex uncivilized countries; the 19th Century rule is that civilized countries should respect human right and should not commit atrocities to eachothers, but that does not include uncivilized people overall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    MehemtAli_Pasha's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by blank View Post
    Well Britain is ridiculous as it is. As an example from my current campaign, by 1895 they have 3200 industry, while the nearest competitor has 570 (!). Military-wise, they have about 1000, second best has about 500.
    that actually made me wonder if there is some sort of player handicap in this game. there should be one at least for tech research otherwise i dont really understand how i could catch up with nations like France and GB.

    may be we will see a better balance of power when they fix great power alliance.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by MehemtAli_Pasha View Post
    that actually made me wonder if there is some sort of player handicap in this game. there should be one at least for tech research otherwise i dont really understand how i could catch up with nations like France and GB.
    You don't suppose to catch up them since that is how real world goes...
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  17. #17
    blank's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    You don't suppose to catch up them since that is how real world goes...
    Actually you can catch up to other countries, just not GB.

    That is exactly why you get far less infamy when you annex uncivilized countries; the 19th Century rule is that civilized countries should respect human right and should not commit atrocities to eachothers, but that does not include uncivilized people overall.
    Some civilized AI countries attack each other on a daily basis and nobody seems to care much.
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  18. #18
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by blank View Post
    Actually you can catch up to other countries, just not GB.
    Not really. Research point is base on population to literacy ratio. The more people you have that are literate, the more research point you can generate.

    The only country that can actually catch up with GB is probably only China, which the 103 millions men truly generate a large amount of research point every month.

    Quote Originally Posted by blank View Post
    Some civilized AI countries attack each other on a daily basis and nobody seems to care much.
    Because those civilized AI generally end their war with white peace; the idea is that you are not suppose to be a tyrant and oppress civilized people's freewill. That, however, is not including uncivilized people which in 19th Century generally viewed it was a bless to them to be "civilized" by European under European rule.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  19. #19
    blank's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Not really. Research point is base on population to literacy ratio. The more people you have that are literate, the more research point you can generate.

    The only country that can actually catch up with GB is probably only China, which the 103 millions men truly generate a large amount of research point every month.
    ?
    I said you can catch up to other GPs besides GB, who is always way too far ahead. I thought my sentence was clear enough
    Anyway, as it is, it is essentially impossible for WW-esque wars to happen (even if GPs were capable of alliances), since the monstrosity that is GB and it's 50-or-so lackey states could -slap the entire continent around without too much effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Because those civilized AI generally end their war with white peace
    You get infamy for adding an "unjustified" war goal, how the war actually ends is irrelevant.
    ; the idea is that you are not suppose to be a tyrant and oppress civilized people's freewill. That, however, is not including uncivilized people which in 19th Century generally viewed it was a bless to them to be "civilized" by European under European rule
    Oh please. You actually think that the other great nations really cared if someone claimed a couple provinces from some other nation, if it didn't directly affect themselves? They would risk losing tens of thousands of soldiers to assist some poor nobody out of good will? Really, "police states" as such did not exist until after WWI.
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  20. #20
    MehemtAli_Pasha's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Victoria 2- Infamy needs reform

    Quote Originally Posted by blank View Post
    ?
    I said you can catch up to other GPs besides GB, who is always way too far ahead. I thought my sentence was clear enough
    Anyway, as it is, it is essentially impossible for WW-esque wars to happen (even if GPs were capable of alliances), since the monstrosity that is GB and it's 50-or-so lackey states could -slap the entire continent around without too much effort.
    you are exaggerating a bit. i am sure France with the right alliances, could make Great Britain bleed. i am disappointed though to see Germany not as monstrous as it was in Vicky(it wasnt in my 2 campaigns). hopefully patch 1.2 will fix that, along with great powers alliances. until then we should see a better "balance of power" and no more huge gaps between a world power and the other.
    Last edited by MehemtAli_Pasha; August 29, 2010 at 08:17 PM.

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