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Thread: Historical Speculation - Did the Neanderthal survive into ancient times and later?

  1. #1
    Osceola's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Historical Speculation - Did the Neanderthal survive into ancient times and later?

    This topic is inspired by my previous one inquring about the "Wendol" of the 13th Warrior.

    In this movie/book they are portrayed as sub-human" or "quasi-human" if that makes any sense. They are cannibals, extremely primitive and very savage, ferocious men.

    As it was explained to me, the Wendol are meant to be sort of.. left over Neanderthals. The most primitive of mankind, before civilization arrived. At first people automatically assume this race of man mustve died out before the times of such cultures as the Sumerians, Egyptians, Myceneans and so on and so forth.

    But just how logical is that assumption? We know that there wasnt really a.. "civilised" (trying not to offend anyone, I consider myself a Celt, but I'm going by Egyptian/Sumerian/Mycenean standards of civilisation) culture running things. No empire. Scattered tribes who apparently did discover bronze casting and such. But how much room is there for Prehistoric man to continue existence? Quite a bit if you think..

    But what can we take for a tell-tale sign of Neanderthals?

    In my opinion, cannibalism. Look at how many other ancient cultures detested it. Killing was one thing, but cannibalism in thier eyes really set you apart from the rest of the other races.

    We do know the Neanderthal was a cannibal, evidence of it has been discovered in a cave in France. Plus in early forms of warfare, as primitive native cultures of recent times and even the present day show us, eating your foe is a good weapon. Psychological warfare at it's most gruesome.

    Another thing that seems to have set one apart from other men in these times among some cultures is well size. Y'know, giants! In some cultures it's a good thing, in others your a monster. Take a look at the Nordic tales of frost giants, the Irish and other Celtic tales of giants. Another thing that seems to accompany giants.. is cannibalism. So put 2 and 2 together, a cannibalistic giant.

    Goliath man.

    According to a National Geographic documentary on the dawn of man I recnetly saw, there was a race of Neanderthal, Goliath man, who arose out of the middle east and eventually migrated to Europe. Many cultures have stories of races of giants living there before them.

    But everyone assumes Neanderthals and even Goliaths just disappeared when more advanced races of humans arrived. Come on now, Europe is big enough for everybody! Now lets look at examples of cannibals and giants during ancient times.

    The Androphagi

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphagi

    The Oddysey - There were several accounts of cannibals in the Oddysey, and of course the cyclops, a cannibalistic giant.

    The Frost Giants of Nordric Myth

    Giants in the Bible

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/newth...=newthread&f=7

    And of course this races namesake.. Goliath.

    Discuss!

  2. #2
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    The Sword of Cao Cao

    I have a difficult time accepting that you can generally describe Neanderthals as cannibals. One might as well say based on the evidence of South American soccer teams trapped in the Andes, the Donner Party, the Aztecs and any really long siege in recorded history proves that Homo Sapiens-Cro-Magnons are/were cannibals. At the end of the day the remains of Neanderthals are so limited, any reconstruction of there ‘culture’ is largely a guessing game.

    To really show a pattern of cannibalism, it seems to me you would need a consistent and general pattern of remains at Neanderthal sites where bones showed definite signs of being gnawed by Neanderthal teeth. A single or even a few data points might simply be the result of desperation during a harsh winter…

    Even if a Neanderthal group survived into the era of recorded history, and was composed of large individuals it would still be hopelessly out classes by its bronze or iron era human contemporaries. Neanderthals were unable to compete with Stone Age Cro-Magnon hunter gathers, how could they possibly represent a threat to modern humans of the era of recorded history?

    The context for giants in the Odyssey is hardly history, but rather Odysseus’ boasting when he is discovered as naked and lost - flotsam by the Phaeacians. Internally Homer makes it quite clear Odysseus is a innervate liar (it is his first reaction to meeting pretty much anyone), there is no particular reason to assume any of the adventures he relates are real and he has lots of motivation for trying to impress his hosts with the fact that he is a deadly enemy and a prince that is, someone to be helped not tossed into the quarries as a slave or executed as a pirate…
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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Neandertals defentitley didn't make it into modern or even the period of egypt's golden age. To start they were only in Europe. And our findings of there bones...end well well well before that of 3000 B.C if they had excisted even then we would find more of there bones as there less old. It's possibile they were intergrated into society yes...but im sure we have found people considerd ''giants'' from 3000 or so B.C and they definetly weren't Neandertals. That and Neandertals voices are higher pitched then humans. Basically think of a 9 year old voice for a grown up man. They would never succesfully intergrate into society...hell there head's even shaped different. They would certainly be killed and feared EVEN if and that is very unlikely they made it to that period. However I think most europeans are actual desendents of Neandertals. There is evidence we cross bred. And really the idea they were wiped out with cro magnons hunting them or lack of food etc are really only speculative. I think the evidence points out to cross breeding and eventually our traits were more dominant. Except mabey for a few but we don't really notice them. But no I'd say it's ahh... a impossibility for them to of made it even to 3000 b.c let alone any furthur.

    EDIT: The second link links to new reply. Don't know if that's what you wanted...just telling incase
    Last edited by Scar Face; February 20, 2006 at 07:27 PM.

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    Semisalis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scar_Face
    Neandertals defentitley didn't make it into modern or even the period of egypt's golden age. To start they were only in Europe. And our findings of there bones...end well well well before that of 3000 B.C if they had excisted even then we would find more of there bones as there less old. It's possibile they were intergrated into society yes...but im sure we have found people considerd ''giants'' from 3000 or so B.C and they definetly weren't Neandertals. That and Neandertals voices are higher pitched then humans. Basically think of a 9 year old voice for a grown up man. They would never succesfully intergrate into society...hell there head's even shaped different. They would certainly be killed and feared EVEN if and that is very unlikely they made it to that period. However I think most europeans are actual desendents of Neandertals. There is evidence we cross bred. And really the idea they were wiped out with cro magnons hunting them or lack of food etc are really only speculative. I think the evidence points out to cross breeding and eventually our traits were more dominant. Except mabey for a few but we don't really notice them. But no I'd say it's ahh... a impossibility for them to of made it even to 3000 b.c let alone any furthur.

    EDIT: The second link links to new reply. Don't know if that's what you wanted...just telling incase
    Actually, most scientists agree that there's no one In the world today that has ANY genetic relations to Neanderthals. On the evolutionary branch, Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals split up at around 500,000 years ago.
    In ethical theory, I should care. I know that I should care. However, emotionally, to be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn.
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    Sidus Preclarum's Avatar Honnęte Homme.
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    Quote Originally Posted by conon394
    One might as well say based on the evidence of South American soccer teams trapped in the Andes
    that was an uruguyan *rugby* team :p

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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Hm, well poohy on you Barbarian

    EDIT: Can someone list all of our ancient ancestors/realtives? I know there's more then Neandertals and cro magnons and homo eructus. By the way aren't cro magnons our ancestors? How come they aren't considerd human? Is there signifigant evoloutinary changes? A link would be nice! :original:

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