Battlefield Seppuku (hari-kari) or honor in death?

[Paco]

I'm really excited for this mod, especially since I've been engrossed in Shogun (book by James Clavells...:wub: amazing). I was wondering a couple things.

1) for whatever reason, if at all historically possible, will some units have the opportunity or ability to commit seppuku on the field? Not very laughable, but seems funny to have the the caption going from "fighting to the death" to "commiting seppuku" as they're running, and 30 of your finest warriors just impale themselves, handing over a victory to that stupid rebel AI. I can't think of any real purpose to this in game, except maybe depriving your Computer controlled foe the satisfaction. I would say that it would add valor chevrons to the unit...but they'd be dead...

2) how is this game gonna deal with the fact that a lot of these samurai just would like to die. Honorably of course...but reading this book..it seems if you told your men to retreat, they'd disembowel you, then light your children on fire, then command all their friends, family, and vassals to commit ritual suicide. In terms of gameplay, it seems like too big of a gap between uber elite, super morale filled samurai, and then a band of crappy peasents. Are you going to have most units have incredible morale, which would probably make battles much more fun, but probably less realistic. I think even samurai battles end in 50% (at least) of the losing army routing.

another thing is, armies were a ton bigger in Asia that time than any roman army or medieval army. (Again my source is this book...) Seems like an army for 3 thousand (about as big as RTW armies can get) would be a small contingent compared to the armies of anywhere from 50,000 to 200 thousands of just samurai. Obviously, only the biggest bestest computers can handle even 8 full armies of 3,000, but is there any way one could emulate the enormity of the Japanese population.

[Zenith Darksea]

Shogun is a brilliant book - I could not put it down - but it isn't perfect on every point. For instance, the part where the army of ninjas attacks the castle (I hope I haven't spoiled the story for you) is totally unrealistic, but I won't get into THAT argument here. In reality, there were many instances in which samurai fled from the battle. True, many committed seppuku and many fought to die, but it wasn't always true. Take the Taira clan in the Gempei War - they just never stopped running away! The Minamoto chased them from Kyoto to the straits of Tsushima.

True, samurai armies were much bigger than RTW ones. But then so were Roman armies. This is a universal problem from which all Total War games suffer.

[Osceola]

It's extremely unrealistic I'm afraid. Especially on thier portrayal of "ninja" (proper term to be used is shinobi). For example that whole Amida Tong deal definitely did not exist.

[Spartan Commander]

I say give it about 10 more years, as things are going now, and you may very well indeed see armies in the 10-50K mark on each side. That may sound incredibly boring and a letdown but I base my opinion on technical limitations that presently exist and the pace at which it takes technology to unfold. Tho I don't pretend to be expert. It's just my guess.

As far as suicide there's no way to know for sure in what all ways it was done (or rather where) tho many accounts exist on some forms of how it was done (or where). Based on the many accounts it's my opinion that it was done the most honorable way possible. That is if it was not best to wait for a formal ceremony then it was done on the spot ala 47 Samurai. However was it ever actually done on the battlefield? It's possible.

As far as the ninja attack on castles goes nobody can say how it was done exactly or how everyone appeared when they did it. My opinion is that most likely it was a combined effort. When supreme invisibility was required most likely the ninja were in disguise as either monks, ronin, farmers, merchants or even guards. However I wouldn't put it passed some to dress up in black gi with the whole mask and everything and act as a distraction for the guards while other ninja in disguise would most likely be doing the actual task of attacking the castle. Is this example not possible?

Kind of futile arguing such points. I wasn't there were you?

[antisocialmunky]

Why don't people actually get a bunch of reinactors together and test ninja tactics? It woudl make for great TV.

[Paco]

ok first of all YOU DID RUIN IT FOR ME!!!...I just hope thats not how it ends...Or there will be much bloodshed and seppuku.

@Cao Cao, chill out dude no ones arguing the historical correctness of the ninjas in that book. I never even mentioned ninjas. (Zenith did....he needs to die.) They are pretty tight though...although I believe you that the overall book is not accurate.

@Spartan, actually I think you're right that most people wouldnt commit seppuku on the field...probably generals who lost big battles would right afterwards, and maybe routed samurai would prolly cry then whip out the old stabber in a more beautiful, cermonjial place soon after the battle. Aren't samurai bound to either commit seppuku or become ronin if their master commits seppuku?

[Zenith Darksea]

You're right! I'll commit seppuku at once.

[italiano]

You could use that elephant ability...

The samurai go nuts killing anyone so you force them to commit sepuku. Pretty funny

"but is there any way one could emulate the enormity of the Japanese population."

You don't really think MTW and RTW accurately depict ancient and medieval populations do you?

"another thing is, armies were a ton bigger in Asia that time than any roman army or medieval army. "

I'm not sure you can get a ton bigger than thermopylae. We're talking about japan here anyway, not china (which I assume has the largest battles in history).

[Paco]

they actually were a ton bigger than most european armies, and the european contingent of thermopylae is less than 12k, no? the persian (asian) army was the one numbering over like 150,000, and that's just cause persia conquered like...everything...east of greece and west of china that is.

duh chinese armies were huge. but despite its size, Japan still had more people than all of europe combined times two I think (during the Shogun eras that is). maybe even bigger. Plus, in Japan, you were either peasant, or samurai. Samurai didn't do anything, except perfect their arts (namely war), and there were tons of them. So I think the actual, non peasant part of any Japanese army would easily quadruple the size a medium sized army of knights, even if all of europe joined forces. Europeans were too greedy to share the wealth I guess...made such a small upper class.

and soldiers commiting suicide is different then engaging in a suicidal charge. although thats an awsome ability for an elite unit to have.

still doesnt count as seppuku though...Can anyone think of any reasonable advantage to committing suicide?

some cool screen shots of having a kneeling group of samurai, a bunch of prone seconds, and then 2000 observers?

[Wild Bill Kelso]

duh chinese armies were huge. but despite its size, Japan still had more people than all of europe combined times two I think (during the Shogun eras that is). maybe even bigger. Plus, in Japan, you were either peasant, or samurai. Samurai didn't do anything, except perfect their arts (namely war), and there were tons of them. So I think the actual, non peasant part of any Japanese army would easily quadruple the size a medium sized army of knights, even if all of europe joined forces. Europeans were too greedy to share the wealth I guess...made such a small upper class.

Historical sources for your opinions? Which Shogun era are you talking about? Ashikaga? Tokugawa? The Samurai class wasnt even strictly seperated until Hideyoshi formalised the various classes (there more than 2 acutally). Before then there was a much smaller distinction between Samurai and peasants. In fact up until the late momoyama period many samurai worked the fields, it was the Hideyoshi and the Tokugawa who forced them to choose between tilling the soil and living in the city. Why exaclty do you think the Japanese population was so large? Remember it was a country of relativly limited resources plauged with conflict for a very long time, not exactly the most beneficial circumstances to population growth.

[Paco]

oh well then you pretty much discount what I said, but I was talking about the Tokugawa era. And as I said, my only source is basically Shogun, the book. We all revere the knowledge that is posessed by the wild bill Kelso.

[italiano]

From wikipedia:

400-1000AD
" Estimates of total population of Europe are speculative, but at the time of Charlemagne it is thought to be between 25 and 30 million, and of this 15 million are in Carolingian France."

1250-1350AD
"Overall, the population of Europe is believed to have reached a peak of around 100 million."

1350-1500
"By 1500 the total population of Europe was substantially below that of 200 years earlier, but all classes overall had a higher standard of living."

A search suggested that china and the roman empire actually had about 60mil each at around 100AD.

I don't think you can call the population of japan very large in comparison, even when comparing their medieval population to ancient roman and chinese populations.

"Japan still had more people than all of europe combined times two I think"

Um, no. Not even close.

"Samurai didn't do anything, except perfect their arts (namely war), and there were tons of them"

Less than 10% of the population. Yes they were a larger % of the population that knights, but samurai were a warrior class, where as knights were nobles??

"Europeans were too greedy to share the wealth I guess...made such a small upper class"

And japanese were any better? Where there is power there is corruption, doesn't matter what nationality or race it is.

"Can anyone think of any reasonable advantage to committing suicide?"

It would be funny to have your men take their lives and cripple your forces instead of just retreating. I like the idea of guys in heavy armour and swords on a rampage (elephant ability), and then have the abilty to just kill them. Not that this will happen (kind of disappointed, but relieved at the same time).

Paco, I think your've been reading too much biased material.

As for thermopylae, the battle took place in europe, so is classed as a european battle. FWIW most of the persian troops would've been caucasian anyway.

"And as I said, my only source is basically Shogun, the book."

Then don't count it as fact.

"another thing is, armies were a ton bigger in Asia that time than any roman army or medieval army. (Again my source is this book...) Seems like an army for 3 thousand (about as big as RTW armies can get) would be a small contingent compared to the armies of anywhere from 50,000 to 200 thousands of just samurai."

This makes it sound like you think roman & medieval euro armies had a few thou per side? Are you sure of 50k to 200k of just samurai?? I'd imagine this included the whole force. Why did you even make the original post? ~5k per side is as large as we can get in RTW, so deal with it.

[Paco]

...
I hate sources
:sign_sorr
I like pulling things out of a hat. Forget everything I said then. Back to seppuku, then again we kind of decided it wouldn't work.

...Don't try so hard next time

[PROMETHEUS ts]

as for example only at Cannae Romans fielded 80000 men versus the Carthaginians .....

[antisocialmunky]

Well, you can't really compare the 80,000 legionnaires that were drawn from Italy during the Early Roman Period to the 50-60000 man Japanese armies at 1650. You just can't.

[Paco]

This is true. I don't think we can compare any ancient sources to any non-ancient ones when talking about population. Although I guess major growth didn't really occur so much as it did in the 20th century.

[Kagemusha]

The battles in Sengoku Jidai period were not very huge in General.For example the famous battle of 4th Kawanakajima between Takeda Shingen and Uesugi Kenshin had about 20000 troops deployd by Takeda and their allies and about 13000 Uesugi and their allied troops. A major battle on the period had about 5000-10000 troops deployed by one side.Ofcourse there was also bigger engagements in the end of the period like Segikahara(about 80000 troops on both sides) or The Osaka campaigns that marks as the end of the era (113800 troops on Toytomi Hideyori´s side and 195000 troops under Togukawa Ieasy). But in the battles like the Segikahara and Osaka sieges troops under various Daimyos came for all ower Japan to fight for both sides.

[Paco]

I see

[Gogoas]

Of course, regardless of numbers, it would suck if you order retreat and your elites kill themselves in the field.

[italiano]

it would suck if you order retreat and your elites kill themselves in the field.

How was routing in real life?? Sure ashigaru would've routed, but how about samurai? If they were in battle was retreating typical, despite their reputation? Or would they actually fight to the death or take their own life? I'd guess that they were less suicidal in real life...