BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview and Release

[wudang_clown]

Instead of guessing and misreading my posts, test it yourself. Javelin cavalry will use its javelins like spears when fighting elephants in close combat.

I tested it and you are right. HA indeed stand still and do nothing and javelineers use their javelins as melee weapon. This is also an issue in EDU 2.02.

However, I'd like to point out that I made an assumption and marked it by putting "I don't think" and "I guess", so although I was wrong, there's absolutely no need to shout.

The bug may be annoying, but who would send those HA with their swords to fight off elephants anyway... On the other hand, ere jav cav does very well against rajput elephant javelins; maybe even too well...

[General George Monck]

To Lupu

I've tested this also and can confirm that on occasion this happens, but not always. to avoid this happening I've take to using the cantabrian circle maneuver against elephants. so long as the elephants don't charge the mounted javelineers tend to stay at firing distance. Alternately you could park the mounted javelineers near the elephants and hope they target the big grey beasties. But I understand your distemper, it's far from ideal.

To wudang_clown

Although tetchy Lupu didn't use block capitals and I think that means He didn't shout.

[gamegeek2]

Changes to elephant attributes - they now have more morale, and all non-BG elephants have 'prec'

[gamegeek2]

Added Varangians to custom battles and increased the cost of Pelekyphoroi axemen

[gamegeek2]

Question - would anybody be interested in me doing this for the M2TW EDU?

[gamegeek2]

Depowered Sughdians, as they were as good as Varangians, which doesn't make sense.

[gamegeek2]

Sughdians cut down to 90 men

[gamegeek2]

Relative size change applied to ghazi heavy axemen as well

[gamegeek2]

Tweaked some swordsmen stats

[Spike]

what a many updates

[Lupu]

Nice changes, but now sughdian assault inf has a bonus fighting cavalry and I can't believe that's intentional .
Also, what's wrong with all the units having the warcry ability?

And a suggestion, you said you give archers with shields on their back an armor bonus instead. I think most archers with shields actually use them in combat, except the georgian ones. So you could possibly give them half the shield defense they normally would have, and half the extra armor they get from having a shield on their backs as a compromise?

[frontier-auxilia]

Hey looking great guys. I gotta agree its hell balancing heavy cavalry. You get a lot that think they are rich man's folly worthless after their charge and beg for nerf after nerf till they really become redundant overpriced unit.

I prefer them to stay murderous as battles other then the famous ones like err Cercy, Agincourt etc shows that most infantry unit will get smash really badly by a few charges even if they manage to hold.

Some balancing ideas

- Horse archers and medium lancers need less staying power. It just don't fit with their use. These units are suppose to use their speed and mobility to their utmost advantage. Yet they stand way too well in a missle barrage and close quarters. I seen 1 unit of medium cav with larger cavalry size bog down and route a unit of Norman knights with very little lost. Those guys are half the cost. Similarily Horse archers can recieve charges way too bloody well. When facing A.I opponents with strong cavalry, i just simply confront them with horse archers who tie them down for the rest of the battle. Not really nice if you ask me.

-Muslim heavy cavalry needs a buff. Stuff like Royal Mamluk, Caliph guard need to be as bad ass as they were in vanilla. Yeah a lot of dudes remble on how their stuff are supposinly feeble against knights because they ride smaller horse and never use "croached Lance". Yet i come across plenty of studies and journal articles that contradict these claims

[Spike]

Maybe I could gave this suggestion, made all European Knights as 2HP units, but somewhat cut their unit size... said... Jerusalem bodyguards should sport only 6 men while the others, non crussader bodyguards are 8... they are quite famed for their individual abilities and "arrows stick into their chainmail"... just a clothed version of Gaesatae maybe? oh yeah, they are drunk with Bible than druidic potions this time

[Borgoroth]

I haven't read the whole thread, just a few posts that talked about morale, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating somethiing.. Anyway, the morale became to high imo, every single unit got excellent morale, sure weak troops rout faster but they differ very little. The way I almost always play this game, I attack with small horse armies, so when for example the enemies levy archers gets pounded by heavy cavalry charges from 3+ angles and still doesn't rout, that is, to me, unrealistic. So my question, is there some easy way to change the morale so everyone doesn't have excellent or is it time consuming? Either way, I would really appriciate help to change it.

Oh and another thing, are the generals way stronger? I can't remember having this much problems when trying to kill a general aswell as my own general being greater then I remembered..

[wudang_clown]

I prefer them to stay murderous as battles other then the famous ones like err Cercy, Agincourt etc shows that most infantry unit will get smash really badly by a few charges even if they manage to hold.

Murderous cavalry = short and absolutely one sided battles and player wins all the time with few losses.

That's why this is system is being developed. I've played few battles today, cavalry vs spearmen, here's what:

1. Arabian Spearmen losses 40-50 men in one Norman charge; not bad.

2. Khurasanian Heavy Spearmen losses 1-3 men in one charge; cavalry sucks.

However, that's because one of the goals behind this system is actually to force the player to look for other solution than just: "screw the tactics, chaaaaaaaaaaarge!!!". What's the point of spending a month or two over balancing the EDU when all you really need is 2-4-heavy-cavalry-units-speedy-finger-pressing-pause-button-and-others-hitting-both-mouse-buttons "tactic"?

Now, back to my battles. For next fight I picked Outremer Swordsmen and Norman Knights against Khurasanian Heavy Spearmen. I engaged with my swordsmen in fighting with Khurasanian heavies and charged them with Normans from behind (you have plenty of time to maneuver) - 20 men died in one charge. This way you can repeat the charge and eventually win. In massive battles it is harder, sure, but this way you need to make an effort to find a solution.

Also, Agincourt isn't a good example of heavy cavalry smashing infantry, is it?

Maybe I could gave this suggestion, made all European Knights as 2HP units, but somewhat cut their unit size... said... Jerusalem bodyguards should sport only 6 men while the others, non crussader bodyguards are 8... they are quite famed for their individual abilities and "arrows stick into their chainmail"... just a clothed version of Gaesatae maybe? oh yeah, they are drunk with Bible than druidic potions this time

Actually, it isn't that easy to pierce mail coat with an arrow, just check this and this. For a common Turkish horse archer it was more beneficial to shot the horse than the rider. So, "arrows stick into their chainmail" aren't a fantasy.

[gamegeek2]

Nice changes, but now sughdian assault inf has a bonus fighting cavalry and I can't believe that's intentional .

Yes, it is. Two-handed axes are a brutal weapon against horses as well as men, and were famed to be able to fell a horse in one or two good swings.

-Muslim heavy cavalry needs a buff. Stuff like Royal Mamluk, Caliph guard need to be as bad ass as they were in vanilla. Yeah a lot of dudes remble on how their stuff are supposinly feeble against knights because they ride smaller horse and never use "croached Lance". Yet i come across plenty of studies and journal articles that contradict these claims

Caliph's guard should defeat Knights of St John and Templar Knights handily; they and royal Ghulam lancers are only inferior to Proniarioi as mace-armed elite cavalry. The Khwarezmians field the heaviest cavalry in the game. In short, Muslim cavalry is FAR from inferior.

- Horse archers and medium lancers need less staying power. It just don't fit with their use. These units are suppose to use their speed and mobility to their utmost advantage. Yet they stand way too well in a missle barrage and close quarters. I seen 1 unit of medium cav with larger cavalry size bog down and route a unit of Norman knights with very little lost. Those guys are half the cost. Similarily Horse archers can recieve charges way too bloody well. When facing A.I opponents with strong cavalry, i just simply confront them with horse archers who tie them down for the rest of the battle. Not really nice if you ask me.

This position doesn't make sense. If they are to rely on speed and mobility, then need stamina to keep going. Also, please give me the context in which a medium lancer unit defeated Norman knights.

Oh and another thing, are the generals way stronger? I can't remember having this much problems when trying to kill a general aswell as my own general being greater then I remembered..

There is no stat in the EDU that affects the general himself. However, some traits do give significant hit point bonuses to the general himself, and IIRC he has a hardcoded high attack.

And a suggestion, you said you give archers with shields on their back an armor bonus instead. I think most archers with shields actually use them in combat, except the georgian ones. So you could possibly give them half the shield defense they normally would have, and half the extra armor they get from having a shield on their backs as a compromise?

Well, the tool can't calculate that, and the shield bonus only applies from the front anyways, so it doesn't make much sense, assuming that missile units primarily stay out of combat; so they will take more missile attacks than melee ones (especially considering that the AI usually targets missiles with missiles)

[metsikhovne]

I think bodyguards shall have higher unkeep and all other units a little less :| or player will create army which contains only generals army will be powerful but it will be like a cheat a i think :|

[gamegeek2]

Bodyguards cost a comparable amount to other elite cavalry.

[gamegeek2]

Guys - I would like to hear some campaign reports. Can you post screenies, etc. of your current campaigns, and compare AI behavior to 2.02 AI expansion, obviously include difficulty and everything.

Also, overall feedback on the difficulty of the battles would be nice.

Thanks,

gg2

[Babygod22]

Well I haven't play much campaign but the battlefield are alot longer that's for sure.

And it's not easy to rout enemy in big battle, especially when they also have cavalry to block off mine, Usually I have to drive my cavalry to their back about 5-6 times to get a single unit to rout, If I drive all my cavalry at once then alot of them will run away but some still stay, but it's not easy to do that because I'm using Germanicus's verybadAI battle AI. I like it, very challenging.

Bow units are now completely useless against armoured units, but very effective against unarmoured troops. Javelins and arrows are useless against elephants but a lot of low level troops could kill half the elephants. Elephants can only be use as suicide units because of their high upkeep, but they're not great at melee neither, you can only use them to charge and make enemy troop fall so your militia army could folow up.

templar axemen, varangian and elite varangian guard cannot be use as assault troops although their role is asault troops, because before they charge, they wasted time to switch to their weaker secondary weapon, also occasionally in close combats they just stop to switch back and forth their weapon. while the enemy killing them.

Some units don't have unit cards.

Questions:
I notice that in your EDU alot of unit's name are diffrent compare to the orriginal EDU, doesn't this mess up the campaign_script army spawning code? Because they use the old name, not the new one...