BROKEN CRESCENT 3.0 PREVIEW - EDU and Battle System Preview and Release

[gamegeek2]

The reason for that is because missle cavalry IS useless against elephants in close combat....

Correct.

Remember, the primary aim is battle realism.

Also, note that Templar Knights on foot would not be the same quality as they were on horseback, no matter the description, whereas historically Sughdian axemen were elite assault troops; in the Sassanid Empire, IIRC Sughdians were the best infantry they could field.

[Prince of Judah]

Well, it wouldn't be a good idea, in my opinion, given that number of Templars in the Holy Land was always relatively low. "Franks" always had problems with manpower, which was supplemented by various auxiliaries from among local communities (Syrians, Armenians, etc.).

Reportedly, Templar foot companies consisted of 50 men each - that was a standard. Also, the number of Templars in various engagements and battles didn't exceed a couple of hundreds...

I agree with you. I'm just posing suggestions for playability. Though I do value historicity. But something needs to be done whether it be changing costs or something else. Smaller unit sizes itself doesn't just cause problems but it is compounded since multiple troops can gang up on a single unit in hand to hand combat.

[Babygod22]

There are no definitions for the stats of generals in the EDU, so I don't know how that happened - though I've had similar experiences.

I tried to find the file that have general's stat but can't, I think it's hardcoded, but then again I too, notice alot of diffrence in general's strength between SS 6.3 and BC.2.02

[Chivalry]

Thanks for ansvers, i have an idea;

In real life, defeating a battle was extremely bad for nations. But in BC, it boosts finance.
I modified EDU now this is more realistic:

All units upkeeps are 1/2
All units cost are x2
All units building time x2.

When i defeat a battle, i'm losing more thing than the older edu. Buildin large armies is harder than the older one.

[gamegeek2]

I tried to find the file that have general's stat but can't, I think it's hardcoded, but then again I too, notice alot of diffrence in general's strength between SS 6.3 and BC.2.02

It's likely relevant to the strength of other units.

[Babygod22]

I just unload a rain of javelins using 5 khwarezmian infantry companies on one elite elephants units and NONE of them die, until the third wave, 2 die......

[gamegeek2]

Run up some Trapezitae against them.

It may have to do with the "prec" attribute, which I'm considering removing anyways since it causes bugs in AI behavior.

[Babygod22]

yea you should remove it, I never find it useful, by the time they prepared the javelins for launching the enemy infantry is already charging...
javelins unit should be use as guerillas, not assault.

And yea javelins are too weak against elephant, atleast half of the elephants should be dead by the third waves of javelin, thrown by 4 companies in my opinion, but then again elephants are pretty tough, perhaps you could try making them run amok after a few waves of javelins instead of dying?

[Lupu]

Correct.

Remember, the primary aim is battle realism.

Also, note that Templar Knights on foot would not be the same quality as they were on horseback, no matter the description, whereas historically Sughdian axemen were elite assault troops; in the Sassanid Empire, IIRC Sughdians were the best infantry they could field.

So now it's realistic that they stand around with their bows doing noting while waiting to be killed? I'm not complaining that they get slaughtered, but that they are useless, totally useless. This is what happens when you charge a troop of horse archers into an elephant unit:
1. They will charge with their secondary close combat weapon.
2. They will switch to their bows and stand around stupidly while getting killed.
If it's javelin cavalry it will try to fight with its javelins in close combat like spears, but I don't know if they have an attack value.

[Zaale]

Nice to see BC 3.0 is going on, I always keep an eye on this forum because M2 withouth BC is not playable. Take your time guys

[Spike]

So now it's realistic that they stand around with their bows doing noting while waiting to be killed? I'm not complaining that they get slaughtered, but that they are useless, totally useless. This is what happens when you charge a troop of horse archers into an elephant unit:
1. They will charge with their secondary close combat weapon.
2. They will switch to their bows and stand around stupidly while getting killed.
If it's javelin cavalry it will try to fight with its javelins in close combat like spears, but I don't know if they have an attack value.

since when missile (NON JAVELIN) cavalry are viable counter of elephants in melee?
and remember that if a horsearcher (who often allready doomed when in melee even against mere infantry) get close with elephants, he got double doom (because horse often hates elephants' smell, except in area where they are either trained specificall or had a lot of natural elephant roaming ground

But I agree that javelin cavalry is still underpowered and under ammo-ed in this patch

[gary]

Hi just a question.. i have not played BC for some time... it was always my best mod to plat for M2TW... i am looking to re-installing it.... i have vista and M2TW as well as kingdoms... can you remind me what i need to do.... some one said about "UAC" what does this mean...i know how to install and data folder... just curious if there is anything i need to be aware of.... as its been so long thanks.

[wudang_clown]

since when missile (NON JAVELIN) cavalry are viable counter of elephants in melee?
and remember that if a horsearcher (who often allready doomed when in melee even against mere infantry) get close with elephants, he got double doom (because horse often hates elephants' smell, except in area where they are either trained specificall or had a lot of natural elephant roaming ground

I agree 100%.

Also, Lupu, I don't think there's other possibility of using a javelin that just to throw it. In M2TW javelin is for skirmishers not melee fighters, I guess...

Hi just a question.. i have not played BC for some time... it was always my best mod to plat for M2TW... i am looking to re-installing it.... i have vista and M2TW as well as kingdoms... can you remind me what i need to do.... some one said about "UAC" what does this mean...i know how to install and data folder... just curious if there is anything i need to be aware of.... as its been so long thanks.

UAC = User Account Control which makes those security windows to pop-up every time you are installing something. Just install the mod outside "Program Files" using "Run as Administrator" option and all should be just fine.

[Lupu]

Instead of guessing and misreading my posts, test it yourself. Javelin cavalry will use its javelins like spears when fighting elephants in close combat. Before they switch to javelins, they will charge with their close combat weapon. Horse archers do the same, just that the bows can't do anything in close combat, so they just stand around. This is true for any missile cavalry, if it's khwarezmian guard or light seljuk horse archers. I don't care how useless they would be if they didn't stand around while getting murdered, but they do and it makes them even more useless!

[Goofy]

Could I suggest you to make light units a slight bit faster than heavy units and so? It's an easy though long process. It takes a lot of time but I think it's worth it.
I once made such submod for Stainless Steel and I must say it works well.

In my opinion there should be 5 classes: fast, quite fast, normal, quite slow and slow units. Each class would be 0.3-0.5 % (believe me, 0.5 % is a lot!) faster than the units representing the previous class.

Additionally this would make light cavalry more useful; poor stats but a lot of speed. And for example javelin cavalry would be very deadly because of their greater speed, it would be very difficult to chase them with heavy cavalry.

I hope you notice my post and follow my suggestion, it makes the game even more enjoyable.

[Neige]

In reality a trained knight in full armour could run very fast and even chase down unarmoured troops.

[Babygod22]

Could I suggest you to make light units a slight bit faster than heavy units and so? It's an easy though long process. It takes a lot of time but I think it's worth it.
I once made such submod for Stainless Steel and I must say it works well.

In my opinion there should be 5 classes: fast, quite fast, normal, quite slow and slow units. Each class would be 0.3-0.5 % (believe me, 0.5 % is a lot!) faster than the units representing the previous class.

Additionally this would make light cavalry more useful; poor stats but a lot of speed. And for example javelin cavalry would be very deadly because of their greater speed, it would be very difficult to chase them with heavy cavalry.

I hope you notice my post and follow my suggestion, it makes the game even more enjoyable.

Agree, seem like all infantry and cavalry units run at the same speed, and that's not very fair to the light cavalry, horse archers and skirmisher, I think there's a line in the EDU that's allow you to modify speed for specific units but if I remembered correctly it's for Kingdoms only.

In reality a trained knight in full armour could run very fast and even chase down unarmoured troops.

Yes, (for light infantry ) but it wouldn't be easy for him to catch up, wasted stamina and posistion, that's the purpose of light troops anyway.

There's simply no logic in a knight in full armour could catch up to an unarmoured horse archers or light cavalry in a fair chase. Unless they run into a corner, which is the red line in the battle map, I hope the CIA realease a fix patch for that.

[gamegeek2]

since when missile (NON JAVELIN) cavalry are viable counter of elephants in melee?
and remember that if a horsearcher (who often allready doomed when in melee even against mere infantry) get close with elephants, he got double doom (because horse often hates elephants' smell, except in area where they are either trained specificall or had a lot of natural elephant roaming ground

But I agree that javelin cavalry is still underpowered and under ammo-ed in this patch

Most javelin cavalry has 9 ammo, a lot more than it had in BC 2.02

[gamegeek2]

The elephant-melee-missile cav bug is unrelated to the EDU I think. However, I'd advise you to use up all missiles before meleeing with missile cav, to avoid such bugs.

[Lupu]

So there's nothing to do about it? I think I know why it is, I have seen that lance cavalry also always uses the lances when fighting elephants. Is it hardcoded for cavalry to use its primary weapon against eles? Just wondering .