Request for permission and advice

[TaronQuinn]

My respects to the entire Magyar Mod team.

I have been working for the past several months to add some realistic factions to Deus Lo Vult, and would like to get permission to utilize the excellent roster you all have created. I read the Permission issues thread, but just want to make sure that DLV qualifies as a historical mod in the team's judgment.

I plan to follow your own suggestions of which units are inaccurate in the vanilla Hungarian roster, so that (roughly):

REMOVED:.............................. ADDED:
Slav Levies.................... |...Wlach Spearmen
Slav Mercenaries........... |...Magyar Swordsmen
Transylvanian Peasants.|...Saxon Militia
Croat Axemen................|...Magyar Halberdiers
Bosnian Archers ........... |...Magyar Archers

Please let me know if this is inaccurate in anyway or could be improved by any additions/subtractions. (Please note, the specific switches are just for display, and don't represent the recruitment availability or roles I will implement).

Second, I'm also changing the map, faction color, ancillaries and starting conditions to better represent Hungary's historical position. Therefore, I just want to ask if anyone here has any advice on what the starting populations, leaders and strat map models should be.

For those not familiar with DLV 6.2, I will post screenshots of my efforts up to this point in the next few days.

I have changed Buda and Pest into Esztergom and Varad, respectively. **So, what should be the titles for those two settlements? Count? Voivoide(sp?)? of Esztergom? of a different region/political division?**

I will have more questions as my work proceeds, but would gladly appreciate any feedback or advice the members can offer so that I can implement your work as accurately as possible.
TQ

[Csatádi]

Hi,

in the old times DLV was full of unhistorical features. Always good to hear someone aims historical feeling.

Saxon milicia are simply the halberd militia so it was there already.
Magyar Halberdiers are actually Armoured Halberdiers and were used by many nations in Middle Europe like Czechs, Germans, too. Their majority weren't even Magyars.
You might have a hard time because our fans wanted Hungarian unit names.

Second, I'm also changing the map

Upload the current version.

faction color, ancillaries and starting conditions

You find everything in our mod. I suppose you won't use our changing banners and coas so I suggest to use the double cross coa for Hungary without the green base.

I have changed Buda and Pest into Esztergom and Varad, respectively. **So, what should be the titles for those two settlements? Count? Voivoide(sp?)? of Esztergom? of a different region/political division?**

Hungary had a shire system like England. There were only 2 named bigger region: Transylvania and a bit later Slavonia. For the rest we used simply a geographical division. However I never heard "Transylvanian voivodeship". Principality of Transylvania was founded in 1571.
Slavonia might be 'Bánság' or Banate but in 1080 it wasn't part of the Hungarian Kingdom therefore it's better to call it simply Slavonia.
In English I suggest these
{Kassa_Province}Upper Hungary
{Varad_Province}Lowlands
{Bran_Province}Transylvania
{Budapest_Province}Transdanubia

starting populations, leaders and strat map models should be

Hungary had about 1,5 million people. The rest you find in the mod. We used some rusichi strat models for Hungary (permission issue).

[TaronQuinn]

Thanks for the comments on the units. I'll have more questions as I go on.

My edited map:



Esztergom is a large town, Varad and Bran are wooden castles.

The new color on the mini-map:


Only a little darker than vanilla, but not as dark as your mod, because it was too similar to Venice's color.


THINGS I HAVEN"T CHANGED-

DLV strat models:

If you think these are ok, I'll leave them be.


Questions:

-Where would you suggest to put 3-4 permanent stone forts in the Hungarian lands? Just indicate some names or rivers/mountain passes, and I'll move the forts to the right location.

-So DLV still has the Battlefield Assassins, renamed as Végvári Vitézek. Is this appropriate, or can you suggest a unit from your roster to replace them?

Looking forward to your response. And comments from anyone welcome.

TQ

[shikaka]

@TaronQuinn:

What is Brann? I always wondered it in vanilla, but since you kept it, you might know what that place is? Brassó? (Brasov/Kronstadt)

Where would you suggest to put 3-4 permanent stone forts in the Hungarian lands? Just indicate some names or rivers/mountain passes, and I'll move the forts to the right location.

I don't think there were many at around 1000. AFAIK it was Béla IV who ordered mass construction of stone castles as a defense against a possible future invasion from mongols. (in the XIII. century)

[ST. Toma]

Hail!
The "capital" of Transylvania was Gyulafehérvár (in Latin: Alba Iulia). Bran was a little castle, from cca 1300, and its Hungarian name is Törcsvár. It had no role in Hungarian history, it was just a border fort in the county Fogaras. The CA took it into the game, cause of Dracula, but it is a stupidity (Dracula/Vlad Tepes was inprisoned in Törcsvár for some years...)
You should use Gyulafehérvár, as in Magyar Mod.

Battlefield Assassins came from the Order of Dragon, but it was not a military order. You should change them to Hungarian swordsmen or just remove.

Permanent stone forts weren't before the 2nd half of XIII century, but there were many smaller towns/castles as Kassa, Pécs, Kolozsvár, Pozsony, Temesvár, Buda, Győr or Sopron.

The strat models are not the best, the Magyar Mod models are authentic.

As I see your map, you used the vanilla borders. In Western Hungary, the border was near Vienna/Wien till 1920.

See this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ry_in_1490.png
and this: http://www.historicaltextarchive.com/hungary/hu13.gif

[TaronQuinn]

@shikaka,

Actually, I just wasn't sure what to replace it with haha And as for the forts, I want them to represent minor towns that I can't find space for a regular settlement.

@St. Toma,

Excellent suggestions. I see where Kassa is on your map, and I'll find 2-3 of the other ones and put them on the map.

I"ll look into changing the border a little to the west.

I hope to have some progress by the end of this week, o top of everything else I have to mod haha

TQ

[Csatádi]

Your whole political map should be changed not only the Hungarian borders.


The Hungarian borders in 1180 were like on this map without the southern part over Serbia.


Who is Lord Boris and Germain on the map?
You may check the king's family here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A9la_III_of_Hungary

Geography should be far better, I mean woods, steppes, marshlands, etc. You may check our mod.

There might be some forts but you should show us the western part of the kingdom, too.

Instead of Battlefield Assassins I suggest to check our units.

[TaronQuinn]

Your whole political map should be changed not only the Hungarian borders.

It's not MY political map. DLV is not my mod. I am modding it to make it more historical. The political map looks the way it does for game-play reasons, so that each faction has to struggle a little bit, and so there are rebel provinces to conquer in the early turns. There is a Historical Campaign in DLV, but the scripts and other aspects of it have not worked in the last few versions I have played.

I'm striving to be more authentic, not to be 100% accurate of Hungary's borders in 1180; you yourselves have had to compromise with the regions and borders. And we also must admit that these things changed, so I am going for a more basic layout that allows for the inevitable changes in ownership.

That being said:

I am looking into changing the ground types as I type this.

I'm probably going to leave the strat models alone for now.

Lord Boris and Germain are just rebel characters present at game start to cause trouble, a feature of DLV. They are not based on any persons from the historical period, but represent those who left no record behind; they're just generic trouble-makers.

Again, I'll update you as I edit the map. It'll be a while yet before I get your superb units into the game, but I'll also update you on that.

Thank you for all your advice.

TQ

[Csatádi]

It's not MY political map. DLV is not my mod. I am modding it to make it more historical.

So what you make is only for your personal use and will never published?

Again, I'll update you as I edit the map. It'll be a while yet before I get your superb units into the game, but I'll also update you on that.

To be obvious we didn't gave permission for a public release of our new infantry units. For personal use you can do anything of course.

[TaronQuinn]

Haha yes, I plan to release it for public usage. It'll be a minimod for DLV that include a couple revised factions and rosters.

Actually, I'm in the wrong here; I reacted poorly to that advice. I will change the political map as you suggest. I was just intimidated by the amount of work I know that will entail in editing the descr_strat. I'll have something cool to look at (and more in keeping with that euratlas map you posted) by the weekend.

As for the units, sorry for the misunderstanding. I was hoping to be allowed to use the new infantry units, but I perfectly understand why you want to withhold permission. I can make good use of other skins and unit cards already in the game.

-------------------------------------------------------------

REMOVED:.............................. ADDED:
Slav Levies------------->Wlach Spearmen (skin from EE spear unit)
Battlefield Assassins---->Magyar Swordsmen (skin from Norse or Rus sword unit)
Transylvanian Peasants->Pechenegs (skin from a generic horse archer, with AP melee stat)
Croat Axemen---------->Armoured Halberdiers (skins from upgraded Halberd Militia)
Bosnian Archers-------->Magyar Archers (skin from Bosnian or Bulgarian archer)

Rename:
"Székely Horseheads"--->Royal Warriors/Servienses

Add to Hungary recruitment:
Mounted Sergeants
Hand Gunners
Mounted Crossbowmen

You can see an older version of the DLV Hungary roster HERE. Only somewhat out-of-date, and the unit cards are not used anymore.
---------------------------------------------------------
Keep the suggestions coming please.

TQ

[TaronQuinn]

Sorry for the long delay, mates, had to fix some issues with a previous porject first.

OK, so here is what I did last week with the map:


eastern Hungary, with Bran replaced by Gyulafejervar, and some forests and wilderness added.
-----------------------------


central Hungary, with more forests, and patches of swamps throughout the lowlands. You can also see a PSF representing Kasse in the north.
-----------------------------------------------------

western Hungary around Esztergam: the border is farther west, you can see a fort in the southwest (I think this is close to Pecs?) and some swamps along the Danube.
----------------------------

southern Hungary: I added Belgrade here. I noted your named for it in the Magyar mod, but opted to go with a more modern name to keep me from misspelling it all the time haha.
-------


New minimap showing the factions. Most factions have their actual territory, but I left some settlements as rebels to both represent those areas that resisted central authority, and also give the player something to do in the early turns.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally, here are the unit cards for the 6 units I will be substituting into Hungary's roster:


From left to right:
Wlach Spearmen in place of Slav Levies
Armoured Halberdier in place of Croat Axemen
Magyar Swordsmen in place of Battlefield Assassins
Magyar Archers in place of Bosnian Archers
Pechenegs in place of Transylvanian Peasants
and a new unit to replace Slav Mercenaries, wielding javelins and a spear.

These are unit cards from Agis Tournas' superb work . They represent the skins and models I will be using in game to replace the old units. I know they may not be perfectly accurate, but they are as close as I could get while using the existing files.

Feel free to give any feedback on the map or roster.

TQ

[dome]

hello!

nearly all the maps are ok, exept the one with lake Balaton and esztergam! ON this the border is complatly wrong! The former pannonia province was entirly under magyar control! check the today borders! Or our mod borders.

The 6 unit is ok, but I think here was a little misunderstanding. We bond our permission to use our units to historical accuracy. If we could agree in the map and the roster you would be free to use our stuff including our units.
So , post or send your roster and correct the qouted part of the map please If everything is ok for both of us ,you could take whaetever sou want.

d.

[TaronQuinn]

Thank you for the clarification, dome. The scale of the two maps are different, but I should have taken note of the lake as a landmark and drawn the border accordingly. An easy fix. Did you also mean that Esztergam's position is wrong? Because I note in Magyar, it is somewhat farther north and west; is Esztergam a port city ON the Danube, or just NEAR the Danube?

And again with my misunderstanding; I took castadi's comment as menaing that permission would not be given, rather than had not YET been given. So I'll fix the borders and such, then start looking through traits and ancillary folders to see what material I can include in DLV to make Hungary more accurate and unique. As it is, it just has all the same titles and acoutrement as the other European factions.

TQ

[Csatádi]

Check the maps I inserted before.
Esztergam is on the right side of the Danube but put it by a pixel to north and west. Roughly.

There is another, even more detailed map: http://lazarus.elte.hu/~mihalyi/prob...038%20domb.jpg

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Check the maps I inserted before.
Esztergam is on the right side of the Danube but put it by a pixel to north and west. Roughly.

There is another, even more detailed map: http://lazarus.elte.hu/~mihalyi/prob...038%20domb.jpg

That is one of my favorite maps out there. So detailed!

[TaronQuinn]

OK, fixed the western and southern edges of the provinces.


Now, as for the roster:
(Units in red are the ones I will remove)
(Units marked with an * will use the new Magyar skins)
(a + indicates a unit not previously in the roster)

Infantry:
Town Militia
Spear Militia
Slav Levies --> Wlach Spearmen*
Croat Axemen --> Armoured Halberdiers
Pavise Spearmen*
Battlefield Assassins --> Magyar Swordsmen*
Halberd Militia*
Feudal Foot Knights
Banderial Foot Knights
+Spearmen*

Missile:
Peasant Archers
Bosnian Archers --> Magyar Archers*
Pavise Crossbow Militia --> Crossbow Militia*
Crossbowmen*
Pavise Crossbowmen*
Handgunners*
Arquebusiers*

Cavalry :
Transylvanian Peasants -->Pechenegs
+Mounted Sergeants
Magyar Horse Archers
Szekely Horseheads
Hussars
Feudal Knights
Baronial Banderia
Royal Banderia
General's Bodyguard
Late General's Bodyguard

and Slav Mercenaries --> new javelin-and spear-armed mercenary

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you feel that any units should be removed or modified, or if you have questions on how DLV currently implements their roster, please comment.

TQ

[Csatádi]

Better and better.

Some things aren't placed well yet. Esztergam and Vienna (Wien in German) are too close to each other. Compare the Vienna-Esztergam and Esztergam-Várad distances on the map. If I remember well I needed to put even the vertical part of the Danube to east by a pixel. Compare to the Tatra if you need to do it.
Lake Balaton should be replaced. Compare to the Danube. The mountains should be replaced from '1' to '2', they should be above the Balaton.
Which river is on the southern parts under the Balaton? Drava or Sava?
Sorry I cannot help much because I don't see the whole map.

[TaronQuinn]

From what I can gather from the original map designer, it is the Sava River, running from the eastern foothills of the Alps westward, entering the Danube west of Belgrade.


I've moved Vienna 2-3 pixels west, and Esztergam 1 pixel east and 1 pixel south. I moved Varad 1 pixel west to get it away from the trees.



I moved the mountains, but left some foothils running down toward the lake, adding some woodlands as well. I've also added some more swamps, woodlands, and forests here and there.



The border between Varad and Gyulafervar is more in keeping with your suggestions, as well as the southern border to the east, which obviously isn't pictured; but trust me that it hs been moved north into the mountain passes, rather than extending down onto the plains around the Danube. I've also touched up the edges of all the provinces to more closely match the mountains and other features.




Any comments on the tentative roster I posted in my previous post? And, if you like, I can post an image with the current Hungary symbol. Otherwise, you can find it HERE, courtesy of Tokus*Maximus. (2nd row, fourth from the right).

TQ

[Csatádi]

I moved the mountains, but left some foothils running down toward the lake,

Remember to move the lake as I showed on the map.

North-western borders should be changed a bit. I started to draw, the rest of these borders are on the historical maps. The Moravia-Austia border is also wrong it should be moved a bit to north.



I don't know if you corrected these borders or not but I made a raw edit on this picture:



Units?
If you want to use the Székely notables (Szekely Horseheads) you should put there the common Székely horse archers, too. We didn't make a separate unit for the Székely notables but it's OK.
Cuman units are missing yet. And some other units.
And the Telekkatonák (militia portalis) who may be called also Peasant Horse Archers.
Serb Hussars.
There might be others so I suggest to check the Magyar Mod EDU for the exact codes, ratios and time periods.

[dome]

according to your time period you could choose from these 2 opportunities as faction symbol



the mounted units coming later, but we could discuss about them too.

d.