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Thread: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

  1. #161
    Revan The Great's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomius View Post
    Those are huge presumptions on what a Celt would do really, not bound in fact. You seem to be looking at a Celtish warrior as a mindless barbarian who would not have the smarts to do anything other than smack against a Legionaries shield. You overestimate the Legionary. All of a Legionarys training was with a group, where he was trained to fight as a group, and how not to get separated from said group. Celts trained on their own, fought duels against one another. The differences in their training is what makes them strong in different areas. The Legionaries training was superior simply because the individual ceased to exist in battle, and was replaced by the whole. A legionaries equipment was not designed for a 1v1 scenario.
    I don't want to get in a Celtic vs. Legionnaire B-fight with you, but suffice to say that if a Celt was wielding a two-handed sword that's big and heavy and long there's only so much maneuverability you can have compared to a man with a short-sword and shield that conveniently is the same shape as his body. Using a two-handed sword without a shield presents difficulties and openings exploitable by a Roman Legionnaire whose defensive capabilities were immensely strong

    Again, underestimation of the Celts. Even taking chainmail out of the picture the Celts were formidable warriors. There is too much stock placed in what the victor (the Romans) said about them as people, and its evident in your post because you seem to think a Celt would mindlessly charge a legionary and smash his sword of axe against the Legionaries shield, or just deliberately leave himself open. Celts and Barbarians on the whole weren't always mindless savages ruled by their emotions.
    I don't think they're mindless savages, but they were very powerful men who were headstrong, proud, used to head-on fighting and quick and brutal combat. When you're in the heat of battle, the adrenaline is pumping, you're angry, you want to kill someone - there isn't much cunning thinking, or examined strategy while sipping on a cup of tea determining how best to defeat your opponent. You see a little man hiding behind a big shield, you think 'Ooo I want to hit that as hard as I can to make it break', underestimating the deadliness of the Gladius despite its short reach. The Celts were great strong men, excellent individual fighters, and all of that. I'm sure their IQ's were comparable to the average Roman. Though, I won't let you sit here and dream of big, muscly men with their dinguses hanging out and tell everyone that even unarmored they'd whoop-ass on a Roman Legionnaire because they wouldn't. If that were the case three times the number of these brave, cunning, amazing fighter Gauls should be able to triumph over a Roman Legion a third their size in numbers. Considering how you seem to think that each Roman legionnaire needs to beat three warriors who are better than him in combat to annihilate the other army. Or does pure organization make up for that much?

    Face it, the Celts were unorganized, undisciplined, and suffered from poor strategies and poor leadership. No matter how brainy you think these guys are they would try and storm Roman pallisades in the thousands, hoping to carry the forts away out of pure brute force. The same way an individual Celtic warrior might try to overwhelm a Roman Legionnaire's shield through brute force. It wasn't that they were dumb, they just didn't understand the more refined aspects of making war, conducting battle, and fighting at large because they'd never really had to fight wars or conduct battles like they did when they fought Caesar. That isn't saying they're dumb. It was like asking someone to do calculus before they'd attended a pre-cal class.
    Last edited by Revan The Great; October 21, 2010 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #162
    DarthLazy's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Says we modern people who probably havent even killed a chicken for breakfast. I admit its my fault this discussion has gone a bit too far and is off topic.
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  3. #163
    Revan The Great's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    I haven't killed many animals, but I've been in a few fistfights and brawls in my day. Haven't killed any humans though! :p

  4. #164
    HerzoG's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Quote Originally Posted by Revan The Great View Post
    I haven't killed many animals, but I've been in a few fistfights and brawls in my day. Haven't killed any humans though! :p
    Thats good to hear

    Third Age TW - Roma Surrectum II - All under Heaven

  5. #165
    Aoba
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Quote Originally Posted by Revan The Great View Post
    I don't want to get in a Celtic vs. Legionnaire B-fight with you, but suffice to say that if a Celt was wielding a two-handed sword that's big and heavy and long there's only so much maneuverability you can have compared to a man with a short-sword and shield that conveniently is the same shape as his body. Using a two-handed sword without a shield presents difficulties and openings exploitable by a Roman Legionnaire whose defensive capabilities were immensely strong
    That is assuming the Celt would be using a two handed sword. Most celts had one handed axes/swords, small shields and some times spears. Smaller shields in 1v1 are more advantageous than large shields due to maneuverability. Whilst Roman shields were by no means heavy, their size made them cumbersome and a cumbersome shield might be great protection when your standing side by side in a shield wall with your flanks secure, but at other times? not so much.


    I don't think they're mindless savages, but they were very powerful men who were headstrong, proud, used to head-on fighting and quick and brutal combat. When you're in the heat of battle, the adrenaline is pumping, you're angry, you want to kill someone - there isn't much cunning thinking, or examined strategy while sipping on a cup of tea determining how best to defeat your opponent. You see a little man hiding behind a big shield, you think 'Ooo I want to hit that as hard as I can to make it break', underestimating the deadliness of the Gladius despite its short reach. The Celts were great strong men, excellent individual fighters, and all of that. I'm sure their IQ's were comparable to the average Roman. Though, I won't let you sit here and dream of big, muscly men with their dinguses hanging out and tell everyone that even unarmored they'd whoop-ass on a Roman Legionnaire because they wouldn't. If that were the case three times the number of these brave, cunning, amazing fighter Gauls should be able to triumph over a Roman Legion a third their size in numbers. Considering how you seem to think that each Roman legionnaire needs to beat three warriors who are better than him in combat to annihilate the other army. Or does pure organization make up for that much?

    Face it, the Celts were unorganized, undisciplined, and suffered from poor strategies and poor leadership. No matter how brainy you think these guys are they would try and storm Roman pallisades in the thousands, hoping to carry the forts away out of pure brute force. The same way an individual Celtic warrior might try to overwhelm a Roman Legionnaire's shield through brute force. It wasn't that they were dumb, they just didn't understand the more refined aspects of making war, conducting battle, and fighting at large because they'd never really had to fight wars or conduct battles like they did when they fought Caesar. That isn't saying they're dumb. It was like asking someone to do calculus before they'd attended a pre-cal class.
    In the heat of battle is when a Roman Legion would be at its best, how many battles occured with only one legionary versus one celt? In a 1v1 scenario with no other Romans about and no other Celts about a Celt would stand a bluddy good chance to beat a Roman Legionary. A Legionary wasn't equipped or trained to be a great 1v1 fighter, a Celt was. A Celt was better trained for 1v1 than a Roman, and was better equipped for that scenario. You also make the huge mistake of trying to think a band of individuals would triumph over a collective. It doesn't work like that. If the opposition is better organized than you as a whole then no matter how fantastic you are 1v1 you don't stand a chance, simple as. There is a huge distinction you ignore between 1v1 combat and a pitched battle with thousands of men involved, that goes for everything up to and including the mentality used going into it. To be better one versus one means nothing in a full scale battle. The Romans were better as a group than as individuals, the Celts were the opposite. So in that vain to make a presumption based on Celtish battle tactics is poiuntless.

    Simply put: You cannot use pitched battles involving thousands as reasoning why in a 1v1 a legionary is superior.

  6. #166
    Abreas's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Ideally a Roman would try and stay in formation (Unless you're Titus Pullo) . . . This discussion reminds me of Spike TV's Deadliest Warrior; it is interesting but pointless and sometimes frustrating. Although I agree with Revan it is deffinately possible a Celt Warrior could beat a Roman in a one on one fight in the middle of a forest somewhere with overdramatic moves and cheap sound effects. To quote Titus Pullo "Best move on, aye?"

  7. #167
    terzer's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    hmmm, guys you forget and underestimate, that the principate legionnaire was a professorial soldier!!! his life was all about fighting, technics, endurance! On the other hand one average Celt was a ordinary citizen, a farmer, cattleman, and a fighter (but with no professorial training). The whole day of a legionnaire was training and more training. Not to mention how battle hardened and experienced he was after the years in wars. I don't recall celtic warriors to run 10-20 miles with overweighted armor every day, just to improve endurance. Yes the celt maybe was genetically stonger and bigger, but raw power not always is better . Maybe the only major advantage for the celts was the motivation (fight for their land), as for a legionnaire was only survival and victory.
    So my bet is that a 1v1 battle will be a bigger challenge!
    In the end they endured so many wars with so many cultures, terrains, different enemy fighting techniques! Almost every major battle they fought was against majorly outnumbering army (x2, x3) and they won them all, with few exceptions. This tells us the efficiency of the individual. Yes they fought as a unit, but every soldier was in the battle. Also consider the battles against Macedon (Macedons were more dependent on the unit as a whole), in which Rome won.
    In the end, for me this comparison is like a amateur sportsman against a professorial athlete...
    And again, sorry for the off topic! We should open a different thread just for this discussion.

    p.s. I don't think that the Romans fought like its shown in HBO Rome. Its too "mechanical".
    Last edited by terzer; October 21, 2010 at 03:39 PM.

  8. #168
    Yari-hei
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Not to mention this whole "1 on 1" argument means absolutely nothing... The majority of battles the Romans fought in were army against army. Doesn't really matter if a 6-foot something heavily muscled dude could beat a short stocky Roman silly, that's simply not how they fought.

  9. #169
    MarcusTullius's Avatar RS Altäir
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Quote Originally Posted by apple View Post
    Would you read a newspaper or even a blog with only Comic Sans?

    I feel just thinking about it.
    Me too! Horrible font!

    **RS Dev Team***Reciprocal Repper!* RIP Calvin- you will be missed

  10. #170
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Thank god for Helvetica.
    Son of Legio
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    Rest in peace Gordon

  11. #171
    Ybbon's Avatar The Way of the Buffalo
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Four fonts walk into a bar, the barman says "Oi - get out" We don't want your type in here!"

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    I got my iLife 11 today. Really liking the improvements that apple has made. I'm currently learning how to play piano with garage band's excellent learning video's.
    I hope that I will be able to play some of Mozart's easier pieces by the end of next week and after that start the Guitar tutorials. Just this part of the suit was well worth the 49€ it costed.

    Tut tut apple...double post...you should know better! /MarcusTullius
    Last edited by MarcusTullius; October 23, 2010 at 03:08 PM.
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    Rest in peace Gordon

  13. #173
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Ηello guys!!!

    What's your job in Real Life?? For me, i'm second Lietenaunt in Greek Army. You????

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  14. #174
    Ybbon's Avatar The Way of the Buffalo
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Crocodile Wrestler and Lion tamer in Birmingham - as there isn't much call for that locally, I do computer support as well

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    General Brittanicus's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Quote Originally Posted by ybbon66 View Post
    Crocodile Wrestler and Lion tamer in Birmingham - as there isn't much call for that locally, I do computer support as well
    Well i'm so awesome they offered me the posiiton of King of England, but i had to turn it down due to other commitments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkimachos View Post
    Ηello guys!!!

    What's your job in Real Life?? For me, i'm second Lietenaunt in Greek Army. You????
    Hey Alkimachos, not seen you around here for a while- good to see you back.

    My job technically only exists for the 3 months over the summer, but it's electrical engineering in that time- the other 9 months of the year is spent at uni learning more about electrical engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by ybbon66 View Post
    Four fonts walk into a bar, the barman says "Oi - get out" We don't want your type in here!"
    I lol'd., +rep
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    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Glad to see you again Britannicus, I think the job of King will be great for you!!!!!!!!!!

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  17. #177
    Von koh's Avatar Taihō no heishi
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Brittanicus im learning electrical engineering too. Electrician stuff in career school.

    What other Roman time period games do you have?

    I have Caesar 4, 3 and Settlers 4, 3.
    Last edited by Von koh; October 27, 2010 at 12:54 PM.

    My gallery Rep if you like.
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    General Brittanicus's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    I really like the sound of whats happening to the 1 turn campaign, i might have to transfer my allegiance from 0-turn to 1 turn again- dependshow many stacks i feel like fighting.
    Under the patronage of the outstanding Omnipotent-Q. And patron to writer extraodinaire Boustrophedon


  19. #179
    terzer's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Progress on Patch One:

    Quote Originally Posted by General Brittanicus View Post
    I really like the sound of whats happening to the 1 turn campaign, i might have to transfer my allegiance from 0-turn to 1 turn again- dependshow many stacks i feel like fighting.
    Me too, but l still can't live with so few recruits and army sizes...
    The thing is that the engine itself is made for 1 turn rec, so the experience is better.

  20. #180
    Vekken's Avatar Aoba
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    Default Re: Roma Surrectum Mansio, a place for friendly off topic talk

    Infantry in the US Army. Currently deployed btw.
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