Proposal for Victory Conditions

[SpartanCaesar]

If the idea to win in this mod is by gaining hegemony rather than outright conquest, then I have a proposition.

Why no integrate the controlling of a faction as a protectorate into the victory conditions? I.e. Sparta must control ten provinces and Athens must be a protectorate.

[apostate]

doesnt something like this need scripting?
...our lead coder suffers heart attack each time scripts are mentioned

[spirit_of_rob]

My main argument against Protectorates been a part of the victory condition is the highly unpredictable nature of protectorates in RTW for example i have played a game of RTR when the Seleucids were the protectorates of pontus Seleucids were the richest and the biggest empire at the time Pontus had 4 provinces

Plus theres the fact that probably 90% of players play RTW to kill everyone in sight... I know I do

[Ricgard]

yes, there are exploits to make one a protectorate with a quarter stack army and a diplomat.

[SpartanCaesar]

Then we've a dillema. How would one depict the acquiring of hegemony? Capturing cities won't work... Unless there's a more abstract means of depiction lined-up...

[Romanus]

Special victory conditions(including protectorate) would require scripting. I generally am against scripting in RTW since I dont like the way these are used, its one I consider "untrustworthy". Perhaps well think about scripted victory conditions more later but for now the aswer is no.

As for how we are going to implement this whole "hegemony" stuff, well its true we dont have much freedom here, its how RTW works, conquer that you win, conquest is always the target, so other than superficial(or scripted) changes we can do little. There are some ideas to make conquest look more like hegemony but still their effectiveness will limited(just lesser troops, continous grievience etc) so we are open to suggestions here.

[Rosacrux redux]

I think it will be tough to have any non-conquest options for victory condition... but you can play around with key-provinces in the conquest VCs. Meaning, the various states would have to aquire a fixed number of provinces (which shouldn't be a flat 50 provinces for all, but a number varying according to starting power and starting size - ie. the VCs for Mantineia should definitely be lower than those for Macedonia.

I'd suggest a bit of exhaustive research to find key-affiliations for every faction in-game. Meaning, the Athenians (par example) victory condition should include cities that were historically vital for the Athenian hegemony: Delos, Amphipolis, Byzantion, possibly Lemnos. The Spartans should definitely have Tegea, Crete, a foothold in Attica (Dekeleia?) and some cities in Chalkidike. The Thebans should have some cities in Arkadia, Feres in Thessaly, Platees, Orchomenos. The Macedonians would need the whole Thessaly and the whole Chalkidike... The Syracuseans would need the whole Magna Graecia... and so on. Maybe the Greek center of Delphoi should be among everybody's VCs... just some thoughts.

It won't be easy to find all the relations, but I can help you with it if you wish. Taking that you will implement that kind of VCs.

[Romanus]

We already think of adding specific provinces in the victory conditions, apostate has prepared a list. He is better suited to talk about this than me I think.

[apostate]

yes but worthy second opinions are also welcome

[Ghost_loy]

hmm bi and 1.3 has a new diplomacy "setup" in descrstrat that has stuff like....

roman_julii -10 roman_scipii which -10 is their relationship and will stop them from attacking, i have screwed with this and

gotten seleucids to be - 800 to greeks and they never attack eachother

then all you need is a script to change their faction relationships to -800 or -

10 once they are your protectorate. i hope this makes sense.

[Major König]

If the idea to win in this mod is by gaining hegemony rather than outright conquest, then I have a proposition.

Why no integrate the controlling of a faction as a protectorate into the victory conditions? I.e. Sparta must control ten provinces and Athens must be a protectorate.

That sounds fine. But other faction and small states should have less conditions than that, based on how you start out.

[apostate]

I think it will be tough to have any non-conquest options for victory condition... but you can play around with key-provinces in the conquest VCs. Meaning, the various states would have to aquire a fixed number of provinces (which shouldn't be a flat 50 provinces for all, but a number varying according to starting power and starting size - ie. the VCs for Mantineia should definitely be lower than those for Macedonia.

I'd suggest a bit of exhaustive research to find key-affiliations for every faction in-game. Meaning, the Athenians (par example) victory condition should include cities that were historically vital for the Athenian hegemony: Delos, Amphipolis, Byzantion, possibly Lemnos. The Spartans should definitely have Tegea, Crete, a foothold in Attica (Dekeleia?) and some cities in Chalkidike. The Thebans should have some cities in Arkadia, Feres in Thessaly, Platees, Orchomenos. The Macedonians would need the whole Thessaly and the whole Chalkidike... The Syracuseans would need the whole Magna Graecia... and so on. Maybe the Greek center of Delphoi should be among everybody's VCs... just some thoughts.

It won't be easy to find all the relations, but I can help you with it if you wish. Taking that you will implement that kind of VCs.

as i told u we will not have in game cities which were built after 514 or were abandoded in that date and later resettled....so we have no Amphipolis...also Delos is very very small to be a provicne with a city on it!
also Attica is only a single province with only one city....we prefered not to split it by naming as city any of Athens demes...

u are welcome to send any info u feel that can be helpful and i can share with u my own ideas

Meaning, the various states would have to aquire a fixed number of provinces (which shouldn't be a flat 50 provinces for all, but a number varying according to starting power and starting size - ie. the VCs for Mantineia should definitely be lower than those for Macedonia.

i dont understand what is the purpose of this.....is it about the provinces importance or about its size?

[Scar Face]

Mabey you could do the protecterate thing but also do. Excample Sparta: Defeat Athens in 2 wars. Excample Athens: Defeat Sparta in 1 war
Defeat Persia in 1 war

Is it possibile? Every time you make a ceasfire the script goes check. That would be cool wouldn't it, make you look like the strongest as you battle for control of the garudian of the greeks . And since the 1.3 patch is out you can't re-load and make then force a ceasfire you would have to beat them into the ground! Oh but also add but you must not destroy athens etc (I mean completely It's fine if they die but you must not kill them)

EDIT: to guy above me saying you don't understand that last part. I think he means Persia should have more optismitc goals more provinces etc to conquere then say Athens

[deadcell87]

I do Agree that Persia should have a more of an Ambitious goal like taking over all the provinces. After all Persia was not just going after Greece they were going to go and take over the western world but the Greeks were a certain road block for that passage and so that never got to happen.

[Rosacrux redux]

Yes, I meant that every city state, dependant on starting size, potential and historical role, should have more or less ambitious Victory Conditions at least pertaining the number of provinces - Persian Empire should have like 100 provinces, including all the major Greek cities, Athens should have half of it (and any other VC you should implement) and a smallish city state (I put Mantineia as an example) should have even less.

I take it you won't make every city have the same potential, no?

[apostate]

sure in that terms of course the VC will vary much....

-btw where did u coem across a faction like Mantineia?
...there will be Mantineian hoplites (like for most hellenic city states) but we cant afford to make more than 20 factions (unless we use the way of 19+1 more different each time like imperium does)

....what i only had somewhere mentioned,was that when u hold Mantineia city u will not recruite Spartan hoplites but Mantineia hoplites....

[Rosacrux redux]

-btw where did u coem across a faction like Mantineia?

Just an example, because it was such a smallish city state

[junoisgod]

I would have thought that victory conditions should attempt to follow history as much as is realistically possible, with Athens, Sparta, Persia and Carthage as the main powers.

Persians should have vast resources, and a vast VC to equalise things. They will naturally start with a large number of provinces, so should have to capture the entire map more or less (which was their aim in invading Greece in the first place)

Athens has always been seen as the centre of the ancient Hellenic world (rightly or wrongly), and so all should have to capture this, including Carthage and Syracuse. It was Gelon's desire to rule Athens and I'm sure the Carthaginians would haved loved too as well.

As the other major Greek power, Sparta should also be a VC for all mainland Greek states. Any non-mainland states would probably have to defeat Sparta to get Athens anyway.

Sparta and Athens should have to capture each other (Peloponnesian war) and defeat Persia. This should be done by capturing Sardis. This was the major Persian city in modern day Turkey. This would also reflect the Athenian 'empire' under Pericles which recaptured Ionia and the surrounding area.

The real secret lays in the balancing. The smaller Greek states will need to find it hard to build armies, but have very strong city defence and therefore difficult for Athens and Sparta to capture. Diplomacy and alliance between the Greeks should be essential in order to defeat the Persians, who should be very rich, with a large, but not very strong army (lots of auxiliaries). Thebes, Thessaly and Macedon should side with Persia if possible early in the game, and then try and defeat the victors.

Carthage should attempt to capture Syracuse and Italy, and vice versa

The numbers of provinces required is obviously dependant on the size of faction and number of provinces on the map

[apostate]

regarding carthage capturing athens....well given the huge size of our map and given the advanced difficulcy of BI such objective would be highly unrealistic and unfair for poor carthaginians!

-i dont know if their is a way to make certain faction more likely to ally with others....
however we included boiotians,thesslians and macs to the same "culture" when we divided the factions in the code in case it could help somewhere....

[deadcell87]

and so all should have to capture this, including Carthage and Syracuse. It was Gelon's desire to rule Athens and I'm sure the Carthaginians would haved loved too as well.

Carthage had no intentions to move to mainland Greece. That would have been a stupid move on them since they don't even have close to any army the size of the persians. Not only that I'm sure the rest of the greeks would have not stand for that and would have made a coalition just as they did against the Persians. If anything Carthage's victory condition should be trying to get the islands of Corsica, Sardinia, and Syracuse. Italy thats a maybe I'm sure they wouldnt find it to be a profitable war to go into Italy and start war with the Greek from there but then again by that time they were allied with the Romans who were also trying to get rid of the greeks. If they did possibly just the southern part of the boot. Remember if the war didnt bring profit to Carthage they werent intrested only at certain times did the Carthaginians had to fight back.