The truth about Pilums

[LuiSius_ScutaRuS]

yesterday i watched attilla the hun and a week ago i watched Gladiator so i have a question.


in RTW the pilum is used as a missile weapon thrown before melee combat.
but in ALL films i have seen and even in documentaries, this pilum is used as some kind of spear.
i have never seen a roman unit trowing it.

movies are movies but they must be in some way historically correct. rtw is only a game but ALSO has to be made according to some historical books or so.

so which one is correct?

[John I Tzimisces]

Pila were almost NEVER used as spears. Julius Caesar I think did so ONCE, but only because he knew that barbarians thought Romans always threw them, so seeing them wielding them as spears caught them off guard. Otherwise, they were used exclusively as missiles.

[LuiSius_ScutaRuS]

mm. all films must be wrong then....

also they march with their pilum. in rtw the pilum is hidden...

[makeshift52]

They used them against Parthian cataphracts and armies heavy on horses.

It is a combination really, but they mainly were used a javelins.

[John I Tzimisces]

They used them against Parthian cataphracts and armies heavy on horses.

It is a combination really, but they mainly were used a javelins.

like I said. 99% of the time, they were used as javelins.

[makeshift52]

I agreed, but later on,against Persia, they were used as spears quite often.

Like most things, films exaggerate.

[Sidmen]

Well these films also showed a single roman line marching forward, this wasn't a roman tacitc.

[Darth Fungus]

For anyone but a Roman History Buff like you guys, seeing Roman Legionares throwing their spears like Hutu or something would just look ridiculous. I know, I've studied movies at College a lot. In fact its like my job now I guess. The first thing they teach you is that people don't know **** about history, don't teach them too much. Unless historical accuracy is your main goal, in which case the movie is probably gonna suck. Want accuracy? Watch the ****in History Channel.

[John I Tzimisces]

I agreed, but later on,against Persia, they were used as spears quite often.

Like most things, films exaggerate.

Keeping in mind, of course, the later Roman military was completely different that the one of the time of Augustus, or Caesar, or most of Roman history for that matter.

[makeshift52]

True, but Titus used it at Jerusalem which is a similar model army to that of the Late Republic.

[Badnercalabrese]

didn't the Romans use the pilums as an anti cavalry tactic similar to the testudo?

[Sidmen]

Yes, they used it to repel cav. But this isn't able to be simulated by RTW's engine.

[Ano2]

Sure your not confusing the pila with the spear late roman infantrymen used (Someone back me up with the name!). The pila was designed to snap on impact which would make it a pretty poor spear imo.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

A pilum only makes a poor spear if the cavalry actually hit it and you wouldn't expect that to happen. Trouble is, even if you have a 21' sarissa you are still gonna be pretty messed up if a charging horse hits it at full speed. At the very least you will loose all the skin on your hands and be very lucky not to break your wrists. Plus it'll break and bits of splintered wood will fly at you at high speed.

The whole point (no pun intended!) of any form of spear-like defence is it puts off the horses. Horses are not daft, they will not run into a sharp pointy object if they can avoid it. They don't really care if it is 20' or 5', or that it'll snap on contact, it's still sharp and pointy.

That's why in the napoleonic era squares of infantry with bayonets fitted to their muskets were so effective against cavalry. They didn't even need to fire, the hedge of pointy bits keeps the horses away.

Of course the whole concept breaks down if the cavalry can get round the side/rear of the hedge .....

Incidently, Caesar used the pilum as a spear against Pompei's cavalry in Greece. He ordered his infantry to jab the pilums at the cavalry's faces to put them off, and it worked.

[Sidmen]

Heres a page about the formation for doubters.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/repel-cavalry.html

[Freddie]

Sure your not confusing the pila with the spear late roman infantrymen used (Someone back me up with the name!). The pila was designed to snap on impact which would make it a pretty poor spear imo.

Wrong. A pilum will bend on impact because there is weight at the end of the shaft counter it. When the Pilum hits your shield the metal will bend because the weight of the shaft is pulling downwards but the tip won't budge because its lodged into your shield and won't come out. There was a mini debate in the history forum the debate was Caesar Vs Alexander/Legion vs. Phalanx. The phalanx fan boys reckon that the fact the hoplites held there Sarissa at 45 degrees angle it would block any incoming pilum because they equated a pilum in the same light as an arrow. I was also informed that even if a pilum did hit there bronze shield the hoplite would remove his shield and would simple pull it out .

Any the Pilum was a very versatile weapon and could be used for all sorts of things. It was designed primarily as an anti infantry weapon but as other mentioned it does make a good anti cavalry weapon. The sharp tip will mean no horse will charge into it (unlike in Brave Heart) as they will get frightened and either halt there charge or throw their rider of their backs. If you were a smart general you would then order any archer or slingers you had to open fire on the dazed and confused cavalry before they had a chance to reorganize themselves.

This tactic was used very successfully by Caesar when he fought the Gaul’s. He latter used it when he fought Pompeii. To stop Pompeii from flanking his right, he took men away from each cohort to from a 4th line. When Pompeii’s cavalry were imposition they were countered y legionnaires using there pilum to stab and mame, soon the Pompeii cavalry wing was in disarray and crashed back into Pompeii left. Pompeii was beat.

[Hyungoku]

nice i didnt know pilums were so useful until i downloaded spqr mod.

u guys should try it.

[Freddie]

nice i didnt know pilums were so useful until i downloaded spqr mod.

u guys should try it.

[makeshift52]

nice i didnt know pilums were so useful until i downloaded spqr mod.

u guys should try it.

We have all, this is the area where people talk about our SPQR experiences!

[Siena72]

This tactic was used very successfully by Caesar when he fought the Gaul’s. He latter used it when he fought Pompeii. To stop Pompeii from flanking his right, he took men away from each cohort to from a 4th line. When Pompeii’s cavalry were imposition they were countered y legionnaires using there pilum to stab and mame, soon the Pompeii cavalry wing was in disarray and crashed back into Pompeii left. Pompeii was beat.

if I remember correctly - Ceasar armed those men with siege spears, and not pilum. Pilums were used as javelins most of the time - at least that's the impression I got.