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Thread: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

  1. #161

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I think he will tweak it a bit more before it's fully done.

  2. #162

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil of Loreauville View Post
    So this RC 2.0 Medieval.txt file is official? Latest & Greatest??

    If so, mind if I make a pdf or doc or even html file out of it and post it on my site?
    Yes go ahead , any tweaks from this point will be minor.

  3. #163

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Great.
    I'll try to make it something downloadable as well as static. Like a pdf or something.

  4. #164

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Hey PB,

    Glad you are back!

    While reading through the RC 2.0 text you uploaded I noticed in the description of differences between missileers and skirmishers both descriptions say "Tend to have more 'fragile' mental stats eg Low Discipline, but this is also dependent on their type eg Local, Pro, Feudal or whatever"

    Are these supposed to be the same, or is there a difference in regard to mental stats between the two unit types?
    Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.

  5. #165

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    True for both, but Skirmishers are a bit more robust, have a look at the GENERAL DISCIPLINE GUIDE tables near the end of the document.

    Also Skirmishers have slightly better morale, slightly higher mass, better melee stats.

  6. #166

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    There have been a bunch of suggestions made around here while you were gone: increased mercenary pools from 1350 or so on, uh...and some other things I can't remember.

  7. #167

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I guess I need to go through the posts.

    Moneybags14 is not too far away from completing a set of spreadsheets that autogens RC 2.0 unit stats for TATW, hopefully it can be modified to apply to the medieval era.

  8. #168

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I hope you can release the 2.0 compilation soon, but here's something that always has been bothering me : these fancy unit classes system on RC, is it already integrated within the stats or is it stacked up?

    I mean, let's say there's an early pro elite archer unit armed with composite bows with 4 missile attack stats (from the in game unit information table), according to RC guide, that unit should get +2 extra damage and another +1 extra damage (more or less, I haven't exactly read the entire guide)...

    so, does that unit actually have 7 missile attack? or just 4? if it 7 then the in game tables are misleading (and so does that RR/RC compilation units project page website), perhaps you should consider put the correct information in the game?
    Last edited by napoleonic; July 26, 2011 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #169

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    The in-game stats are the end product of all the class and type bonuses and penalties.

    The tables explain how the final number was reached.

    Elite bowmen get +1 to the missile attack, so the unit would have 4 (foot composite bow) + 1 = 5. There is no +2 for elite bowmen anywhere.
    Last edited by k/t; July 26, 2011 at 05:40 PM.

  10. #170

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Napoleonic is actually correct, in RC 2.0 such a unit would have 4+2+1. As k/t says all bonuses stack.

  11. #171

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    so the in game unit information is totally wrong then? but here's the thing I'm confused... where does that extra stats come from in the game files??? I'm going to give example here, I'm using RW's submod so things may not be the same :

    type Mourtatoi
    dictionary Mourtatoi ; Mourtatoi, local
    category infantry
    class missile
    voice_type Light
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier Mourtatoi, 48, 0, 0.9
    officer byzantine_unit_officer
    officer byzantium_missile_flag

    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, extreme_range, hardy, can_withdraw, foot_archers, stakes, stakes, mercenary_unit, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.99
    formation 1.2, 1.2, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
    stat_health 1, 2
    stat_pri 5, 2, quality_mass_composite_arrow, 210, 45, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 20, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 2, 7, 3, leather
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 3
    stat_ground 1, 1, 1, -1
    stat_mental 9, normal, trained
    stat_charge_dist 6
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 620, 280, 90, 70, 605, 4, 170
    armour_ug_levels 2, 6, 8
    armour_ug_models Mourtatoi, Mourtatoi_ug1, Mourtatoi_ug2
    ownership all ; byzantium, slave
    era 1 byzantium
    era 2 byzantium
    recruit_priority_offset 10
    IIRC in RW's submod, the in game info says that mourtatois are superior local with 5 missile attack... I can see that "5" from the stat_primary, but where do the bonuses & penalties (being as superior unit, using composite bows, being as local unit etc) come from?

    *I'm not only talking about attack stats here, but also about defense, morale, heat penalty from armor, etc
    so I can see that they have 9 mental stats, but where do the extra modifiers come from? (as the same case with attack stats and everything)
    Last edited by napoleonic; July 26, 2011 at 11:15 PM.

  12. #172

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I was going by the old version, so I was correct.

    I just took a look at the new file.

    1) Are camels really as fast as the fastest ponies?
    2) Are bowmen getting a few too many boosts? Just because an archer is better trained it doesn't mean he can shoot an arrow with more energy than a lesser trained archer. The only things that matter are the bow and the arrow. If a man is capable of pulling the bow to full draw, then he'll do the same damage with it the first time he picks it up as someone who has spent years training with it. He won't be as accurate or as fast to reload and he'll get tired more quickly, but the arrow will fly equally far.
    3) I didn't see anything about accuracy in the new version, but in the old one longbows were more accurate than composite bows. What prompted you to make it so?
    4) Is the distinction between Chargers and Brawlers based on history? Didn't the tactical situation rather than general military doctrine dictate the tactics employed by cavalry? If ordered, the cavalry can retreat and charge again, or push through to break the enemy's formation. I assume things like Lancers will be classified as Chargers, but in that Pavia example you give on occasion they rode through the pike squares. Wouldn't such superheavy cavalry keep driving forward after slamming into an enemy and switching to swords? (This is based on the assumption that the "Idle" animation means they would just stand there with only the front guys fighting instead of pushing forward or backward.)


    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic
    but where do the bonuses & penalties (being as superior unit, using composite bows, being as local unit etc) come from?
    You mean why they are listed as Superior and why they have composite bows and why they are Local units? Historical accuracy plus some judgment calls by PB.

    Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while is mounted archers getting -1 compared to foot archers due to the assumption that mounted archers have to use less stiff bows. On the forum of his website, Grozer Csaba said he didn't believe that horsearchers used bows that were much "weaker" than the ones used by infantry. When you shoot a bow, you push with one hand and pull with the other. Whether your feet are planted firmly on the ground or in stirrups shouldn't matter. I will do some more snooping and see if I can find additional opinions from people with experience on this subject (ideally someone like Kassai Lajos or Lukas Novotny).
    Last edited by k/t; July 27, 2011 at 01:04 AM.

  13. #173

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    no k/t... I'm asking about the game mechanics not real world data

  14. #174

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    so the in game unit information is totally wrong then? but here's the thing I'm confused... where does that extra stats come from in the game files??? I'm going to give example here, I'm using RW's submod so things may not be the same :



    IIRC in RW's submod, the in game info says that mourtatois are superior local with 5 missile attack... I can see that "5" from the stat_primary, but where do the bonuses & penalties (being as superior unit, using composite bows, being as local unit etc) come from?

    *I'm not only talking about attack stats here, but also about defense, morale, heat penalty from armor, etc
    so I can see that they have 9 mental stats, but where do the extra modifiers come from? (as the same case with attack stats and everything)
    Did you see the old PDF guide? Have a look at the attached file, it contains WIP RC 2.0 data, see the Guide especially.

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    I was going by the old version, so I was correct.

    Yes

    I just took a look at the new file.

    1) Are camels really as fast as the fastest ponies?

    Nope, they have a mov_speed_mod that is applied to the camel animation, which is slower than the horse or fast_horse anim. All the mov_speed_mod values in the Mount Table apply to the animation used by that particular mount as shown in the 'Animation' column. The various animations already impart quite a lot of difference in move speeds, the mov_speed_mod values just alter them further.

    2) Are bowmen getting a few too many boosts? Just because an archer is better trained it doesn't mean he can shoot an arrow with more energy than a lesser trained archer.

    A trained archer can pull a heavier draw.

    The only things that matter are the bow and the arrow. If a man is capable of pulling the bow to full draw, then he'll do the same damage with it the first time he picks it up as someone who has spent years training with it. He won't be as accurate or as fast to reload and he'll get tired more quickly, but the arrow will fly equally far.

    True but trained archers will use heavier draw bows.

    3) I didn't see anything about accuracy in the new version, but in the old one longbows were more accurate than composite bows. What prompted you to make it so?

    All the accuracy values are in descr_projectile, its in the attached file.

    Longbows typically shoot a longer shaft leading to greater stability and slightly better accuracy. The effect in-game is small.

    4) Is the distinction between Chargers and Brawlers based on history? Didn't the tactical situation rather than general military doctrine dictate the tactics employed by cavalry? If ordered, the cavalry can retreat and charge again, or push through to break the enemy's formation. I assume things like Lancers will be classified as Chargers, but in that Pavia example you give on occasion they rode through the pike squares. Wouldn't such superheavy cavalry keep driving forward after slamming into an enemy and switching to swords? (This is based on the assumption that the "Idle" animation means they would just stand there with only the front guys fighting instead of pushing forward or backward.)

    The designation of a mounted unit as Lancer, Charger or Brawler is decided by a combination of the unit's weaponry and its typical historical role. This designation is the one that modifies the unit's stats:

    MOUNT CATEGORIES
    Category Anim Melee Charge Defense move_speed_mod mass heat morale
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    All ponies shuffle_backward 0 0 0 0 0 0
    HA/Javelin shuffle_backward 0 n/a 0 +0.1 -0.5 -2
    Lancer shuffle_backward -1 +2 -1 +0.05 +0.25 -1
    Charger idle 0 0 0 0 0 0 +1
    Brawler shuffle_forward +1 -2 +1 -0.05 -0.25 +1 +2

    So an obvious example for a Lancer is, well, a French Lancer (as you mention above re: the pike squares), which receives the above Lancer stat changes of -1 melee attack and defense, +2 Lance Charge, +0.05 mov_speed_mod, +0.25 mass and -1 heat; morale remains unchanged.

    After this, we consult the following table:

    Modifiers Anim
    ----------------------------
    Elite melee or better +1
    Impetuous +1
    Bodyguard -1
    Light Cavalry -1
    Spearmen Cavalry -1

    So the French Lancer, as an Elite Impetuous, gets +2. This means the actual animation set used in melee by the French Lancer is 2 categories shifted from 'Lancer', which makes it 'Brawler'. So yes, in this case this unit, though its tactical role is a lancer, will still perform very aggressively in melee due to its Brawler animation set.

    Note that for French Lancers, in the EDU the mount type is:

    mount french armoured horse brawler lancer

    ie its a french armored horse using the brawler anim set with lancer stat modifiers. In the descr_mount this can be seen as:

    type french armoured horse brawler lancer
    class horse
    model Mount_Armoured_Horse_Brawler
    radius 1.2
    x_radius 0.5
    y_offset 0.7
    height 2.5
    mass 4.25
    banner_height 0
    bouyancy_offset 1.8
    water_trail_effect horse_water_trail
    root_node_height 1.0
    rider_offset 0.0, 0.38, 0.70

    with the 'model' line specifiying the anim set to use, and the mass value reflecting it being a lancer with mass of 4.25 rather than 4.

    The mounted Norse War Cleric (Armored Clergy), on the other hand, has no charge weapon, so is immediately assigned as a Brawler, with Brawler bonuses and a Brawler animation set:

    mount mailed horse brawler.

    The way in which these designations, bonuses and animation sets interact with a units role and weapon set gives a wide range of individualization to the various mounted units. No doubt there will be numerous comments on the designations I've chosen

    You mean why they are listed as Superior and why they have composite bows and why they are Local units? Historical accuracy plus some judgment calls by PB.

    Right, many Mongol units are also Local and they are elite with composite bows.

    Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while is mounted archers getting -1 compared to foot archers due to the assumption that mounted archers have to use less stiff bows. On the forum of his website, Grozer Csaba said he didn't believe that horsearchers used bows that were much "weaker" than the ones used by infantry. When you shoot a bow, you push with one hand and pull with the other. Whether your feet are planted firmly on the ground or in stirrups shouldn't matter. I will do some more snooping and see if I can find additional opinions from people with experience on this subject (ideally someone like Kassai Lajos or Lukas Novotny).
    Its more an issue of a functional mounted bow typically being smaller than one able to be used by a foot soldier, but I guess this could be argued on a case by case basis - in some cases
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 06:21 AM.

  15. #175

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I said I'm talking about game mechanics

    5+2+1, I can see the 5, but where do the 2 and 1 come from?

    stat_pri 5, 2, quality_mass_composite_arrow, 210, 45, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
    where's the 2? 1?

  16. #176

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Well you are talking about RC version before 2.0. In that case, Composite Bow has base 4 attack +1 for being Superior shooter = 5, as in the PDF.

    For RC 2.0 you can find the damage modifiers in the tables
    MISSILE WEAPON EFFECTS MODIFIER TABLE
    MISSILE WEAPON SHOOTER QUALITY ADDITIONAL DAMAGE TABLE
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 08:23 AM.

  17. #177

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    Well you are talking about RC version before 2.0. In that case, Composite Bow has base 4 attack +1 for being Superior shooter = 5.
    aaaah I see now.... so 5 (or any other numbers we can find from the in game unit description) is the final total points... so everything was done first on paper, not +2 -1 etc appeared out of thin air I see that now...

  18. #178

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Yes

  19. #179
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    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Nice to see you around again- are you just waiting for new release of SS or mostly focused on Third Age?

  20. #180

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Thanks, good to be back I figure I'll just continue where I left off and get a release out with what I have up to now plus any more stuff that can be easily included. It has a ton of submods already integrated (eg here is the list of submods in my latest game:
    [campaign] late
    [scripts] AiSoulson.txt BGR4.txt Early_Era.txt GarrisonScript.txt LimitedActivities.txt LongerAssimilation.txt NextHeirMod.txt ReallyBadAI_Update.txt Realrebellion.txt RebelGeneralsEnhanced.txt SoX.txt TNML.txt)
    , honestly its 90-95% done, but its that last 10% that takes all the time.

    For TATW, the main thing is to add RC 2.0 to it, and Moneybags14 has almost completed an autogen spreadsheet for the units so that could be a big timesaver - it should be able to be modified for medieval also. Otherwise I just need to update the EDB for 2.1. Actually I don't think it will take too long.

    I'd say my focus will still be on SS, 70/30, then after release 30/70 in favour of TATW perhaps.

    It didn't help that my 10 month old daughter spilled a glass of water into my laptop, frying it. My current machine can barely run M2TW, but I have a new machine being delivered in a week

    Hmm, new release of SS, I'm not sure when that will be!!
    Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 12:10 PM.

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