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Thread: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

  1. #41

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Nice mod this RC is (RR probably too but I haven't had time to learn to appreciate it as much yet ).

    I've been reading through the RealCombat 1.8 Guide.pdf attached to the download and there are some things in the EDU that I don't understand:

    1. Some units have higher armor value they seemingly should have according to the guide (and the "new armor system"). Take Gothic Knights for
    example. Gothic Knights have 25 in armor and they start with armor level 24 which gives 15 points in armor +6 for the armored horse and
    that's 21. Where are the remaining 4 points from? Is that with the two remaining upgrade levels included i.e. 26 and 27?

    Here is another example. The Lancers start with level 24 and mount an armored horse. That gives 15+6=21 points. And they have 27 points. I
    understand that their maximilian armor is supposed to be somewhat better than the gothic armor but where does the remaining of the 6 points difference come from?

    2. The second question is about the rule in the guide saying
    "To the Base Charge Value, add 1 if Superior or Elite quality, and subtract 1 if Militia or
    Peasant quality." Does this also apply to lances for cavalry or only the secondary weapon?

    3. The third question is why do the Gothic Knights have 3 in secondary weapon charge when the calculation should look like this:
    2 (base charge for mace) +1 (superior or above) -1 (armored horse*) = 2

    *according to this rule:
    "Fast Pony, Eastern Horse: +1 Charge for secondary weapons and non-couched lances.
    Mailed, Eastern Armored, Armored Horse: -1 Charge for secondary weapons and
    non-couched lances."
    Last edited by olekk; August 29, 2010 at 04:36 PM.

  2. #42

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Yeah, some of the numbers are screwy, like the armor of Scholarii. I added up the numbers but came up 2 short. 6+5+2+5 = 18, not 20. Is there another padding that's 2? I think I read in the CBUR forum that they had a padded jacket, then the two armors, then another padded jacket.

    There must be something that PB forgot to tell us about.
    Last edited by k/t; August 29, 2010 at 05:43 PM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I remember he said something in another thread about armour upgrades giving not 1 but something between 2 and 4(?) armour. He wasn't sure exactly I think, but testing gives us that range.

    Also, the guide is outdated so he may have tweaked some numbers a bit. That's my only answer to your other questions, sorry. I really don't know, but that's all the explanation I can suggest.

  4. #44

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    speaking about armor, I'm under impression that units upgraded TO CERTAIN ARMOR should have THE EXACT same armor as other units that use the same armor, best example case is gothic upgraded imperial knights vs gothic knights.... do in current system they would have the exact same armor? because the stats says otherwise and thus illogical.

  5. #45
    Laetus
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    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    With regards to armour upgrades, meese is essentially right- the engine is incredibly annoying in that armour upgrades seem to give a fixed boost to armour somewhere between 2-3ish (very hard to determine since it has to be worked out through empirical testing, which deals with so many variables that it's hard to isolate an exact number). It seems that PB has simply equated each armour upgrade as adding 2 to the existing armour level, which using his table seems to make both units with a certain base armour and those upgraded to the same armour have the same value.

    As for any discrepancies, they're probably due to either the RC guide being outdated (ie. not listing new rules or base values), or a simple error in the EDU (every version of RC has had small issues with EDU values, it's pretty hard to eliminate them all). Looking at it, it seems that some of the armour upgrade levels are a bit off- for example, the armour levels for imperial knights are listed as 16, 21, 23, 26; which according to the RC 1.8 guide equates to partial plate > renaissance half plate > gothic plate > increased armour thickness; this obviously makes no sense (ie. partial = 11, renaissance half plate = 9); imperial knights should be (according to old EDU that was released with the 1.8 guide): partial plate > full plate > improved metallurgy > advanced metallurgy (they never wear gothic plate, the idea is that their older style full plate armour is constructed via new methods over time to become stronger).

    It therefore seems that the armour levels in the new EDU have been changed (ie. reflect different values, due to the addition / deletion of armour levels, since the RC guide was written).

  6. #46

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by Polariszephyr View Post
    With regards to armour upgrades, meese is essentially right- the engine is incredibly annoying in that armour upgrades seem to give a fixed boost to armour somewhere between 2-3ish (very hard to determine since it has to be worked out through empirical testing, which deals with so many variables that it's hard to isolate an exact number). It seems that PB has simply equated each armour upgrade as adding 2 to the existing armour level, which using his table seems to make both units with a certain base armour and those upgraded to the same armour have the same value.

    As for any discrepancies, they're probably due to either the RC guide being outdated (ie. not listing new rules or base values), or a simple error in the EDU (every version of RC has had small issues with EDU values, it's pretty hard to eliminate them all). Looking at it, it seems that some of the armour upgrade levels are a bit off- for example, the armour levels for imperial knights are listed as 16, 21, 23, 26; which according to the RC 1.8 guide equates to partial plate > renaissance half plate > gothic plate > increased armour thickness; this obviously makes no sense (ie. partial = 11, renaissance half plate = 9); imperial knights should be (according to old EDU that was released with the 1.8 guide): partial plate > full plate > improved metallurgy > advanced metallurgy (they never wear gothic plate, the idea is that their older style full plate armour is constructed via new methods over time to become stronger).

    It therefore seems that the armour levels in the new EDU have been changed (ie. reflect different values, due to the addition / deletion of armour levels, since the RC guide was written).
    Regarding the Imperial Knights calculation, you were using the "RealCombat 1.8 Guide" which has the outdated armor system. I have updated the old version of the guide with the new armor system. I'm attaching both so you can decide if you want to have the updated guide or just the new armor system.
    What I did was that I copied the old guide from the pdf written by whoever wrote it and I pasted is the new armor system written by whoever wrote it. I also removed some of the unnecassary stuff from the guide (the energy required to defeat different armor types) and made the tables nicer which makes it easier to navigate in the document.

    In the new system, the gothic plate is the armor type 24 and the Imperial Knights don't have that type among their armour_ug_levels so they don't have to have the same armor as Gothic Knights start out with. The Imperial Knights armour_ug_levels are: partial plate, full plate, improved metallurgy, advanced metallurgy

    Even when taking the new armor system into account, there are still some unexplained armor points like the ones I mentioned in my previous post.

  7. #47

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    but my question stand still, if a unit is upgraded to certain armor, will it have the exact same armor -in values/rating, I guess we can ignore the looks- to another unit that already have that armor as their base armor?

  8. #48

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by napoleonic View Post
    but my question stand still, if a unit is upgraded to certain armor, will it have the exact same armor -in values/rating, I guess we can ignore the looks- to another unit that already have that armor as their base armor?
    What do you mean by the same armor?
    The same armor type (ex 8 for brigandine, 16 for partial plate)? Then the short answer will be yes and even no.
    The feeling I get when looking at those stats and the guide is that the beginning intentions of the people who made this RC systems are to make it the way you described (units with the same armor type = the same armor value) but it doesn't seem like it is implemented this way right now.
    At least because of those previously mentioned unnacounted for armor points of some units. And they differ from unit to unit. Sometimes its 2 sometimes 4 points. The Polish Guard has 2 points too much and the Gothic Knights have 4 points too much (both mount armored horse there can't be an error with the mount armor bonus).

    However when looking at amror types 23, 26 and 27, I don't think that even the intention was to have the armor values equal at those levels because it says +2, which makes sense because those are improvements of the existing armor (greater thickness, advanced metallurgy - production methods)

  9. #49
    SamZi's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I always thought Gothic Plate included Improved Metallurgy +2 but yeah that'd be 2 short still. It couldn't possibly apply to the horse's armor too, could it? I'm confused.
    Last edited by SamZi; September 01, 2010 at 04:03 PM.

  10. #50

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by SamZi View Post
    Are you talking about units with upgraded armor or just what they start with? Armor upgrades visibly add only 1 point each, in actuality they generally give about 2.
    Upgraded armor.

    For example unit A starts with partial plate and later upgrades till full plate. And unit B starts with full plate. Does the upgraded unit A have the same armor value as the unit B?

    My thoughts on this is in my previous post. The intention is: yes it does, the implementation is: sometimes, sometimes not.

  11. #51

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    The problem is the hardcoded +2 per upgrade.

    This game could use a total makeover from the ground up. Anyone got incriminating pictures of CA executives?

  12. #52

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Hehe. No pictures.

    I thought that the hardcoded upgrade was +1 in vanilla and it is +2 in SS RR/RC due to the larger number of upgrade levels or the higher maximum armor value. How is is exactly? Do you see in the unit info when playing the campaign that the armor got +2 after an upgrade? Because you can't see it in a custom battle (only +1 there)

  13. #53
    Laetus
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    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by olekk View Post
    Hehe. No pictures.

    I thought that the hardcoded upgrade was +1 in vanilla and it is +2 in SS RR/RC due to the larger number of upgrade levels or the higher maximum armor value. How is is exactly? Do you see in the unit info when playing the campaign that the armor got +2 after an upgrade? Because you can't see it in a custom battle (only +1 there)
    The thing with the armour values is that while in the game they are always shown as adding +1 to the armour level, this has never actually been the case. As mentioned before, testing has shown that upgrading armour by one level adds approx. 2-3 to the the unit's armour- this is in all versions / mods of M2TW, since the amount appears to be hardcoded somewhere in the core game engine (which is a terrible way of implementing it, hence many people's desire to extract revenge on the CA developers ).

    Therefore, any time you view the stats of a unit with an armour upgrade in game (ie. it has been upgraded from base armour), whether in campaign, custom battle screen, or in the middle of a battle, the value will be incorrect. The only way to accurately compare unit armour values is to get the base values from the EDU and then add 2 for each level of upgrade.

    With regards to the extra armour that some units have, my only guess would be that it's a simple mistake; that or there's a new rule which hasn't been mentioned in the documentation. The intention of the system is to ensure that units upgraded to a certain armour (eg. full plate) have the same armour as those that start with it as base (which is what napoleonic was asking); the system used to largely achieve this at at the time of the original October RC 1.8 release- clearly changes made since then have introduced errors into the EDU.

  14. #54

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    thanks for the answer although I'm still confused :

    1. is there actually any point with all these 'realistc armor' classification (light mail, lamellar, brigandine, etc) compared to the original 'statistic only' classification (armor only represented by numbers)?

    2. there is sort of 'physic based' calculation for combat (certain weapons generates x anount of joules to penetrate, as well as x joules of penetration an armor can widthstand against) DOES IT actually have any point for the game?

    because I doubt the game designed with such complex mechanism!? I wish M3TW will be that complex or even more realitic

  15. #55

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    1. Yeah, it makes it more varied and fun to have many types of armor. In the end, the armor is still represented by numbers.

    2. Yeah, it makes it much more realistic.

    The game wasn't designed with such a complex mechanism, which is why PB had to make RC work within the limitations of the game.

  16. #56

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Is there no other place to get this file other than megaupload? Currently DLing at 7kbs
    Don't wanna wait 40hrs for this file..

  17. #57

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by Reigner View Post
    Is there no other place to get this file other than megaupload? Currently DLing at 7kbs
    Don't wanna wait 40hrs for this file..
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=338916

    Check this thread.


    psssstt--- It's stickied below this thread.

  18. #58
    juvenus's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    still no news of an updated version for ss6.3?


  19. #59

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    Quote Originally Posted by juvenus View Post
    still no news of an updated version for ss6.3?
    Read Advice please? - PB is busy with TATW at the moment.

  20. #60

    Default Re: FINAL SS RR/RC COMPILATION ***AUGUST 13***

    I am using ss6.3 does that mean i cannot use this mod? how do i know if i installed this mod correctly

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