I think he will tweak it a bit more before it's fully done.
I think he will tweak it a bit more before it's fully done.
Great.
I'll try to make it something downloadable as well as static. Like a pdf or something.
Hey PB,
Glad you are back!
While reading through the RC 2.0 text you uploaded I noticed in the description of differences between missileers and skirmishers both descriptions say "Tend to have more 'fragile' mental stats eg Low Discipline, but this is also dependent on their type eg Local, Pro, Feudal or whatever"
Are these supposed to be the same, or is there a difference in regard to mental stats between the two unit types?
Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.
True for both, but Skirmishers are a bit more robust, have a look at the GENERAL DISCIPLINE GUIDE tables near the end of the document.
Also Skirmishers have slightly better morale, slightly higher mass, better melee stats.
There have been a bunch of suggestions made around here while you were gone: increased mercenary pools from 1350 or so on, uh...and some other things I can't remember.
I guess I need to go through the posts.
Moneybags14 is not too far away from completing a set of spreadsheets that autogens RC 2.0 unit stats for TATW, hopefully it can be modified to apply to the medieval era.
I hope you can release the 2.0 compilation soon, but here's something that always has been bothering me : these fancy unit classes system on RC, is it already integrated within the stats or is it stacked up?
I mean, let's say there's an early pro elite archer unit armed with composite bows with 4 missile attack stats (from the in game unit information table), according to RC guide, that unit should get +2 extra damage and another +1 extra damage (more or less, I haven't exactly read the entire guide)...
so, does that unit actually have 7 missile attack? or just 4? if it 7 then the in game tables are misleading (and so does that RR/RC compilation units project page website), perhaps you should consider put the correct information in the game?
Last edited by napoleonic; July 26, 2011 at 11:33 AM.
The in-game stats are the end product of all the class and type bonuses and penalties.
The tables explain how the final number was reached.
Elite bowmen get +1 to the missile attack, so the unit would have 4 (foot composite bow) + 1 = 5. There is no +2 for elite bowmen anywhere.
Last edited by k/t; July 26, 2011 at 04:40 PM.
Napoleonic is actually correct, in RC 2.0 such a unit would have 4+2+1. As k/t says all bonuses stack.
so the in game unit information is totally wrong then? but here's the thing I'm confused... where does that extra stats come from in the game files??? I'm going to give example here, I'm using RW's submod so things may not be the same :
IIRC in RW's submod, the in game info says that mourtatois are superior local with 5 missile attack... I can see that "5" from the stat_primary, but where do the bonuses & penalties (being as superior unit, using composite bows, being as local unit etc) come from?type Mourtatoi
dictionary Mourtatoi ; Mourtatoi, local
category infantry
class missile
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Mourtatoi, 48, 0, 0.9
officer byzantine_unit_officer
officer byzantium_missile_flag
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, extreme_range, hardy, can_withdraw, foot_archers, stakes, stakes, mercenary_unit, free_upkeep_unit
move_speed_mod 0.99
formation 1.2, 1.2, 1.8, 1.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 2
stat_pri 5, 2, quality_mass_composite_arrow, 210, 45, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 20, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 2, 7, 3, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 1, 1, 1, -1
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 620, 280, 90, 70, 605, 4, 170
armour_ug_levels 2, 6, 8
armour_ug_models Mourtatoi, Mourtatoi_ug1, Mourtatoi_ug2
ownership all ; byzantium, slave
era 1 byzantium
era 2 byzantium
recruit_priority_offset 10
*I'm not only talking about attack stats here, but also about defense, morale, heat penalty from armor, etc
so I can see that they have 9 mental stats, but where do the extra modifiers come from? (as the same case with attack stats and everything)
Last edited by napoleonic; July 26, 2011 at 10:15 PM.
I was going by the old version, so I was correct.
I just took a look at the new file.
1) Are camels really as fast as the fastest ponies?
2) Are bowmen getting a few too many boosts? Just because an archer is better trained it doesn't mean he can shoot an arrow with more energy than a lesser trained archer. The only things that matter are the bow and the arrow. If a man is capable of pulling the bow to full draw, then he'll do the same damage with it the first time he picks it up as someone who has spent years training with it. He won't be as accurate or as fast to reload and he'll get tired more quickly, but the arrow will fly equally far.
3) I didn't see anything about accuracy in the new version, but in the old one longbows were more accurate than composite bows. What prompted you to make it so?
4) Is the distinction between Chargers and Brawlers based on history? Didn't the tactical situation rather than general military doctrine dictate the tactics employed by cavalry? If ordered, the cavalry can retreat and charge again, or push through to break the enemy's formation. I assume things like Lancers will be classified as Chargers, but in that Pavia example you give on occasion they rode through the pike squares. Wouldn't such superheavy cavalry keep driving forward after slamming into an enemy and switching to swords? (This is based on the assumption that the "Idle" animation means they would just stand there with only the front guys fighting instead of pushing forward or backward.)
You mean why they are listed as Superior and why they have composite bows and why they are Local units? Historical accuracy plus some judgment calls by PB.Originally Posted by napoleonic
Another thing that I've been wondering about for a while is mounted archers getting -1 compared to foot archers due to the assumption that mounted archers have to use less stiff bows. On the forum of his website, Grozer Csaba said he didn't believe that horsearchers used bows that were much "weaker" than the ones used by infantry. When you shoot a bow, you push with one hand and pull with the other. Whether your feet are planted firmly on the ground or in stirrups shouldn't matter. I will do some more snooping and see if I can find additional opinions from people with experience on this subject (ideally someone like Kassai Lajos or Lukas Novotny).
Last edited by k/t; July 27, 2011 at 12:04 AM.
no k/t... I'm asking about the game mechanics not real world data
Did you see the old PDF guide? Have a look at the attached file, it contains WIP RC 2.0 data, see the Guide especially.
Its more an issue of a functional mounted bow typically being smaller than one able to be used by a foot soldier, but I guess this could be argued on a case by case basis - in some cases
Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 05:21 AM.
I said I'm talking about game mechanics
5+2+1, I can see the 5, but where do the 2 and 1 come from?
where's the 2? 1?stat_pri 5, 2, quality_mass_composite_arrow, 210, 45, missile, missile_mechanical, piercing, none, 0, 1
Well you are talking about RC version before 2.0. In that case, Composite Bow has base 4 attack +1 for being Superior shooter = 5, as in the PDF.
For RC 2.0 you can find the damage modifiers in the tables
MISSILE WEAPON EFFECTS MODIFIER TABLE
MISSILE WEAPON SHOOTER QUALITY ADDITIONAL DAMAGE TABLE
Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 07:23 AM.
Yes
Nice to see you around again- are you just waiting for new release of SS or mostly focused on Third Age?
Thanks, good to be back I figure I'll just continue where I left off and get a release out with what I have up to now plus any more stuff that can be easily included. It has a ton of submods already integrated (eg here is the list of submods in my latest game:
[campaign] late
[scripts] AiSoulson.txt BGR4.txt Early_Era.txt GarrisonScript.txt LimitedActivities.txt LongerAssimilation.txt NextHeirMod.txt ReallyBadAI_Update.txt Realrebellion.txt RebelGeneralsEnhanced.txt SoX.txt TNML.txt)
, honestly its 90-95% done, but its that last 10% that takes all the time.
For TATW, the main thing is to add RC 2.0 to it, and Moneybags14 has almost completed an autogen spreadsheet for the units so that could be a big timesaver - it should be able to be modified for medieval also. Otherwise I just need to update the EDB for 2.1. Actually I don't think it will take too long.
I'd say my focus will still be on SS, 70/30, then after release 30/70 in favour of TATW perhaps.
It didn't help that my 10 month old daughter spilled a glass of water into my laptop, frying it. My current machine can barely run M2TW, but I have a new machine being delivered in a week
Hmm, new release of SS, I'm not sure when that will be!!
Last edited by Point Blank; July 27, 2011 at 11:10 AM.