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Thread: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

  1. #1
    Bagatyr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Here are some :
    End of XIV




    End of XV




  2. #2
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    serbia fell under turks in 1459. quite fake maps
    these are the real maps. one of the most accurate
    http://historymedren.about.com/libra...ateursedex.htm

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  3. #3
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    And that's what the second map says - 1459. The first map says "Vassal since 1389".

  4. #4
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    And that's what the second map says - 1459. The first map says "Vassal since 1389".
    well, despotate was in fact vassal state, but vassal as only obligation to fight. it was not under ottomans, cause why would ottomans siege smederevo for several times and conquer it in the end? it was a kind of vassalship like in early rascia state, and even more free. rascia was in early years under byzantines, but they had most the freedom, even there was bulgarian-serbian war, in which byzantium didn't even participate (i'm talking about early rascia). despotate used to change their vassalship from ottomas to hungary, till no vassalship at all. text on wiki is pretty nice, some quotes:

    "Although the Battle of Kosovo in 1389 is generally considered the end of the medieval Serbian state, the Despotate, a successor of the Serbian Empire and Moravian Serbia survived for 70 more years, experiencing a cultural and political renaissance in the first half of the 15th century before it was conquered by the Ottomans in 1459. "

    "Sometime after the battle, in 1390 or 1391, Serbia became a vassal Ottoman state, so Stefan Lazarevic was obliged to participate in battles if ordered by the Ottoman sultan. He did so in the Battle of Rovine in May 1395 against the Wallachian prince Mircea I and the Battle of Nicopolis in 1396 against the Hungarian king Sigismund. After that, Sultan Bayezid awarded Stefan with the majority of the Vuk Branković's land on Kosovo, as Branković sided with the Hungarian king at Nicopolis.
    When Mongols entered the Ottoman realm, Stefan Lazarević participated in the Battle of Angora in 1402 when Ottomans were defeated and sultan Bayezid was captured. Returning back to Serbia, Stefan visited Constantinople where the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos granted him the title of despot. In previous years, title would mean that the despot would rule some vassal state, but as the Byzantine Empire was too weak to assert such a rule and Serbia was not its vassal state, Stefan Lazarević took this title as the personal style of the Serbian monarchs, thus the Principality of Serbia became the Serbian Despotate."
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  5. #5
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    And both your quotes agree with the map, with the second one only disagreeing about the year.

  6. #6
    Bagatyr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    They aren't fake i know that Serbia was destroied in 1459 .If you can read the furst map is saying that Sernia became a vasal after Kosovo 1389.By the lay thara are no evidence that Bulgaria was destroied in 1396 because there isn't mention about conquring the state but only that Ivan Sratcimir is captured and in Tarnovo prince Konstantin met Bayezid I for gaine approve for rule the Kingdom of Vidin.So it could be 1422 but tanks to the miss understoods of the Czech historian Constantine Irechek people accept an year that is mention only the Battle of Nikopol.
    More maps :




  7. #7
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    this map is from year 1000?

  8. #8
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    And both your quotes agree with the map, with the second one only disagreeing about the year.
    well yes. so it's like this:
    under stefan lazarevic it was firstly ottoman vassal, then free, and hungarian. under djuradj brankovic it was almost all time free.

    ottoman vassal
    Sometime after the battle, in 1390 or 1391, Serbia became a vassal Ottoman state, so Stefan
    Lazarevic was obliged to participate in battles if ordered by the Ottoman sultan.
    free state
    When Mongols entered the Ottoman realm, Stefan Lazarević participated in the Battle of Angora in 1402 when Ottomans were defeated and sultan Bayezid was captured. Returning back to Serbia, Stefan visited Constantinople where the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Palaiologos granted him the title of despot.
    hungarian vassal
    Counting on unrests within the Ottoman empire (Ottoman Interregnum), in early 1404 Stefan accepted vassalage to the Hungarian king Sigismund
    ottoman vassal
    1408 brothers disputed again and Vuk, together with sultan Suleyman and the Branković family, attacked Stefan in early 1409. Being besieged at Belgrade, Stefan agreed to give southern part of Serbia to his brother and to accept again Ottoman vassalage.

    and then, in the time (1426.) of despot Djuradj Brankovic (Ђурађ Бранковић) it became officially free until fall of smederevo 1459.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian...Brankovi.C4.87
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  9. #9
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    this map is from year 1000?
    something like this
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Balkans950.png
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  10. #10
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    your map is not most acurate one, but is much better than bagatyr's if his is from 1000

  11. #11
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    your map is not most acurate one, but is much better than bagatyr's if his is from 1000
    well, it's from wiki. and it's accurate
    please read this
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Caslav_Klonimirovi%C4%87
    he died in 960, that was his country
    Last edited by phoenix[illusion]; August 03, 2010 at 09:12 AM.
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    The topic is abot history maps not for some time frame !




  13. #13
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    if yo remember hrobatos, i once told you about serbian principality before nemanjic dynasty, house of vlastimirovic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...timirovi%C4%87
    and there is croat text
    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ca...nimirovi%C4%87
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Map at the furst years of Peter I rain :




  15. #15
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    The Golden Age of the Bulgarian Empire under Emperor Simeon The Great :



    http://debian.fmi.uni-sofia.bg/~nikola1/Bul/SIMEON2.jpg




  16. #16
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    if yo remember hrobatos, i once told you about serbian principality before nemanjic dynasty, house of vlastimirovic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_o...timirovi%C4%87
    and there is croat text
    http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Ca...nimirovi%C4%87

    I know him, and I think that Porfirogenet actualy refers to him, as Časlav controled except Rašla also Dioclea, Bosnia and Zahumlje, and in such manner these lands were Serb land, not necceserily inhbited by Serbs, but under Serbian rule, and there are other things ypu shoudl keep in mind while reading anything written by Porfirogenet

    only he ruled till 960 which is like 40 years before 1000 isnt it? and after him his state collapsed, Raška, Dioclea, Zahumlje and Bosnia all became indepenednt one to another

    map is correct as its 960 not 1000


    I still dont know what time frame is that Bagatyr's map...

    and Croatia was quite big and powerfull in late 10 century, it was time of Stjepan Držislav, first croatian ruler who was recignized by Byzanine Empire, he was given crown from Constantinople

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    well there are maps as you see where the bulgarian lands beyond Danube did't marked at all so you should not be so supraised about your countree most of the westarns that made maps of the Eastern Europe nations are hipocritse and when see some state like Bulgaria or Croatia very big they start take teritoryes from them and make them unmark like there is noting there only free space...




  18. #18
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    More :




  19. #19
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    I know him, and I think that Porfirogenet actualy refers to him, as Časlav controled except Rašla also Dioclea, Bosnia and Zahumlje, and in such manner these lands were Serb land, not necceserily inhbited by Serbs, but under Serbian rule, and there are other things ypu shoudl keep in mind while reading anything written by Porfirogenet

    only he ruled till 960 which is like 40 years before 1000 isnt it? and after him his state collapsed, Raška, Dioclea, Zahumlje and Bosnia all became indepenednt one to another

    map is correct as its 960 not 1000


    I still dont know what time frame is that Bagatyr's map...

    and Croatia was quite big and powerfull in late 10 century, it was time of Stjepan Držislav, first croatian ruler who was recignized by Byzanine Empire, he was given crown from Constantinople
    well, that earlier map did not match.
    it says circa 1000. (around 1000 year). it should be 10th century

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  20. #20
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Maps of Southeastern Europe

    that P od Servia then should be Dioclea right? if its first Crusade...

    and Croatia should be ruled by Zvonmir

    I see two mistakes about Croatia, it is made to control all teritory to modern day Belgrade, and it didnt, also Spalatum was Croatian not Venetian, and also Dubrovnik was Croatian not Byzantine as map shows

    EDIT : now I see its 1097, still except Dubrovnik/Ragusa everythin I said stands, actually Croatia north of Sava has been just recently conquered by Hungarians
    Last edited by Hrobatos; August 03, 2010 at 11:02 AM.

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