Jesus...and Buddhism?

[Pra]

http://www.tombofjesus.com/Buddhism.htm#sources

Thoughts?

[Francisco Montana]

I don't know about "student of buddism", but before reading that link even, I would agree the over-all vibe I get from both seem very similar.

[Pra]

I don't know about "student of buddism", but before reading that link even, I would agree the over-all vibe I get from both seem similar to me.

Me too. I believe that in the end, all religions are basically about loving one another as God's Children and all that; and how we should all be good to each person.

[totalwar junkie]

Me too. I believe that in the end, all religions are basically about loving one another as God's Children and all that; and how we should all be good to each person.

Except that Buddhists dont worship "God" and Buddha taught nothing having to do with any "God".

[Pra]

Except that Buddhists dont worship "God" and Buddha taught nothing having to do with any "God".

Right. In the end we are nothing. Or is nothing everything? It is just a slightly different way of looking at things.

[Kscott]

Right. In the end we are nothing. Or is nothing everything? It is just a slightly different way of looking at things.

Well I didnt read the thread, but yor saying Jesus is basically the same as Buddha? In some respects myabe, but in essence no..

In chritianity the indvidual is stressed, in Buddhisim there really isnt an individual, not even a concpet of a sole. Simply everyone is part of the greater existance(atleast i think buddhist belive that)..

[Ummon]

It is likely that the two traditions have had contacts. Of which sort and nature, I ignore.

I don't think Jesus was a Buddhist though. Buddhism has one great flaw IMHO, where Christ's teachings do not, while the opposite isn't true. I say this being somewhat an esteemer of Buddhism.

[Kanaric]

Most religions have compassion, and generally how you should treat fellow man as an important doctrine. Its part of a good side of universal human nature and thats why the religions are simular.

I forget what jewish sect people believe he was in now.... i'd look it up if I remembered. It could of had influences.... probably not buddish though.

Except that Buddhists dont worship "God" and Buddha taught nothing having to do with any "God".

Their is more to the christian message and teaching of jesus than god.

[Ummon]

Essenes.

[Saint-Germain]

Just looked up the Essene theory.

They believe the Bible was edited to exclude telltale 'Essene' things like vegetarianism, reincarnation andthe feminine nature of God? Isanyone else getting an unpleasantly DaVinci Code-ish feeling?

These would seem to be Buddhist-type beliefs, but the Essenes also wrote several scrolls about how they would retake Jerusalem by deadly force. Very un-Buddhist.

Needless to say, they were annhilated by the Romans.

[Ummon]

I never said that the theory was true...

[totalwar junkie]

It is likely that the two traditions have had contacts. Of which sort and nature, I ignore.

I don't think Jesus was a Buddhist though. Buddhism has one great flaw IMHO, where Christ's teachings do not, while the opposite isn't true. I say this being somewhat an esteemer of Buddhism.

Christs teachings have no flaws? Thats a laugh and a half. I wonder why then has the religion he created been used as a tool for so many wars and so much killing? Whereas the Buddha's teachings have not?

I think you got it mixed up there.

Kanaric, I know theres more to Jesus' teachings than God, I was just pointing a pretty big difference bewteen the 2 religions.

[Pra]

Well I didnt read the thread, but yor saying Jesus is basically the same as Buddha? In some respects myabe, but in essence no..

In chritianity the indvidual is stressed, in Buddhisim there really isnt an individual, not even a concpet of a sole. Simply everyone is part of the greater existance(atleast i think buddhist belive that)..

...no....I'm not saying that Jesus is the same as Buddha, but I'm saying that some of his philosophies are the same as those of Buddha's.

Further, in Buddhism, the individual is stressed, sorta.

[Kscott]

...no....I'm not saying that Jesus is the same as Buddha, but I'm saying that some of his philosophies are the same as those of Buddha's.

Further, in Buddhism, the individual is stressed, sorta.

I know, but my point is, they may have some similarities, but they also are very different some casses...

[Ummon]

Christs teachings have no flaws? Thats a laugh and a half. I wonder why then has the religion he created been used as a tool for so many wars and so much killing? Whereas the Buddha's teachings have not?

I think you got it mixed up there.

Kanaric, I know theres more to Jesus' teachings than God, I was just pointing a pretty big difference bewteen the 2 religions.

Christ's teachings have, as far as I know, no flaws. You may be as well mistaking the teachings with the people who received them.

Buddha's teachings have too little violence to them. There can be no peace without violence. Violence used wisely, controlled, harnessed, sublimated, and most of all, used only when the laws of nature call for it, not egoistically. A basic Taoist concept too.

[totalwar junkie]

Christ's teachings have, as far as I know, no flaws. You may be as well mistaking the teachings with the people who received them.

Buddha's teaching have too little violence to them. There can be no peace without violence. A basic Taoist concept.

You cannot seperate the teachings from the people who recieved them. Also a basic Taoist concept, interconnectedness.

However, I would dispute the idea that there can be no peace without violence. I've studied quite a bit of Taoism, and I dont recall such a concept. Rather, there can be no life without death. This does not mean violence is a requirement to peace. Actually its quite the opposite. Taoism teaches freedom from emotion just as Buddhism does. Most violence stems from emotion, from anger, hatred, wrong perceptions and wrong understanding. There is quite a difference between killing an animal or plant for food=death and killing people out of anger, hatred, or greed=violence. Theres another interesting one, greed. Most wars are faught over greed, I dont recall Taoism having any requirement of greed for peace and harmony. In fact thats the opposite of what Taoism teaches.

I really dont see Buddhist monks taking vows of non-violence as being a flaw at all. I'm sure if you went and told some old Vietnam vets that killing other people over a nations greed is a requirement to peace, the majority of them would disagree with you. This is because of our conscious, something that the Buddha understood very well. You do realize the Buddha's teachings are aimed at ending suffering dont you? Now how does killing another person help ease your suffering? The answer is, it doesnt, it makes you suffer more, and it also makes the family of the person you killed suffer more. No flaw, simple logic really. Try to look at the teachings of the Buddha within the context of what his goal in teaching them was, rather than your own perception of the way the world works and you'll see his teachings have no flaws.

There can be no peace without violence eh? Tell that to the Aborigines of Australia, a people who for hundreds if not thousands of years knew no violence or even competition.

PS I would also suggest not falling back on believing the philosophies of Taoism as the doctrine of life. Many of the Taoist texts are very obscure and the philosophy its self can be very hard to understand. Add that to the fact that many of them were written by "hacks" and people who just wanted recognition, and you have right there, the reason why people study the Tao for an entire life time and still never achieve the highest form of enlightnement.

[Ummon]

7. The Army

This hexagram is made up of the trigrams Kan, water, and Kun, earth, and thus it symbolises the ground water stored up in the earth. In the same way military strength is stored up in the mass of the people - invisible in times of peace but always ready for use as a source of power. The attributes of the two trigrams are danger inside and obedience must prevail outside.

Of the individual lines, the one that controls the hexagram is the strong nine in the second place, to which the other lines, all yielding, are subordinate. This line indicates a commander, because it stands in the middle of one of the two trigrams. But since it is in the lower rather than the upper trigram, it represents not the ruler but the efficient general, who maintains obedience in the army by his authority.

The Judgment
The Army. The army needs perseverance
And a strong man.
Good fortune without blame.

An army is a mass that needs organisation in order to become a fighting force.

Without strict discipline nothing can be accomplished, but this discipline must not be achieved by force. It requires a strong man who captures the hearts of the people and awakens their enthusiasm. In order that he may develop his abilities he needs the complete confidence of his ruler, who must entrust him with full responsibility as long as the war lasts. But war is always a dangerous thing and brings with it destruction and devastation. Therefore it should not be resorted to rashly but, like a poisonous drug, should be used as a last recourse.

The Image
EarthWater
In the middle of the earth is water:
The image of the Army.
Thus the superior man increases his masses
By generosity toward the people.

Ground water is invisibly present within the earth. In the same way the military power of a people is invisibly present in the masses. When danger threatens, every peasant becomes a soldier; when the war ends, he goes back to his plough. He who is generous toward the people wins their love, and a people living under a mild rule becomes strong and powerful. Only a people economically strong can be important in military power. Such power must therefore be cultivated by improving the economic condition of the people and by humane government. Only when there is this invisible bond between government and people, so that the people are sheltered by their government as ground water is sheltered by the earth, is it possible to wage a victorious war.

The changing lines
Changing line 1:

19

An army must set forth in proper order.
If the order is not good, misfortune threatens.

At the beginning of a military enterprise, order is imperative. A just and valid cause must exist, and the obedience and co-ordination of the troops must be well organised, otherwise the result is inevitably failure.

Changing line 2:

2

In the midst of the army.
Good fortune. No blame.
The king bestows a triple decoration.

The leader should be in the midst of his army, in touch with it, sharing good and bad with the masses he leads. This alone makes him equal to the heavy demands made on him. He needs also the recognition of the ruler. The decorations he receives are justified, because there is no question of personal preferment here: the whole army, whose centre he is, is honoured in his person.

Changing line 3:

46

Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon.
Misfortune.

Here we have a choice of two explanations. One points to defeat because someone other than the chosen leader interferes with the command; the other is similar in its general meaning, but the expression, "carries corpses in the wagon," is interpreted differently. At burials and at sacrifices to the dead it was customary in China for the deceased to whom the sacrifice was made to be represented by a boy of the family, who sat in the dead man's place and was honoured as his representative. On the basis of this custom the text is interpreted as meaning that a "corpse boy" is sitting in the wagon, or, in other words, that authority is not being exercised by the proper leaders but has been usurped by others. Perhaps the whole difficulty clears up if it is inferred that there has been an error in copying. The character fan, meaning "all," may have been misread as shih, which means "corpse." Allowing for this error, the meaning would be that if the multitude assumes leadership of the army (rides in the wagon), misfortune will ensue.

Changing line 4:

40

The army retreats. No blame.

In the face of a superior enemy, with whom it would be hopeless to engage in battle, an orderly retreat is the only correct procedure, because it will save the army from defeat and disintegration. It is by no means a sign of courage or strength to insist on engaging in a hopeless struggle regardless of circumstances.

Changing line 5:

29

There is game in the field.
It furthers one to catch it.
Without blame.
Let the eldest lead the army.
The younger transports corpses;
Then perseverance brings misfortune.

Game is in the field - it has left its usual haunts in the forest and is devastating the fields. This points to an enemy invasion. Energetic combat and punishment are here thoroughly justified, but they must not degenerate into a wild melee in which everyone fends for himself. Despite the greatest degree of perseverance and bravery, this would lead to misfortune. The army must be directed by an experienced leader. It is a matter of waging war, not of permitting the mob to slaughter all who fall into their hands; if they do, defeat will be the result, and despite all perseverance there is danger of misfortune.

Changing line 6:

4

The great prince issues commands,
Founds states, vests families with fiefs.
Inferior people should not be employed.

The war has ended successfully, victory is won, and the king divided estates and fiefs among his faithful vassals. But it is important that inferior people should not come into power. If they have helped, let them be paid off with money, but they should not be awarded lands or the privileges of rulers, lest power be abused.

36. Darkening of the light

Here the sun has sunk under the earth and is therefore darkened. The name of the hexagram means literally "wounding of the bright"; hence the individual lines contain frequent references to wounding. The situation is the exact opposite of that in the foregoing hexagram. In the latter a wise man at the head of affairs has able helpers, and in company with them makes progress; here a man of dark nature is in a position of authority and brings harm to the wise and able man.

The Judgment
Darkening of the Light. In adversity
It furthers one to be persevering.

One must not unresistingly let himself be swept along by unfavorable circumstances, nor permit his steadfastness to be shaken. He can avoid this by maintaining his inner light, while remaining outwardly yielding and tractable. With this attitude he can overcome even the greatest adversities.

In some situations indeed a man must hide his light, in order to make his will prevail in spite of difficulties in his immediate environment. Perseverance must dwell in inmost consciousness and should not be discernible from without. Only thus is a man able to maintain his will in the face of difficulties.

The Image
EarthFire
The light has sunk into the earth:
The image of Darkening of the Light.
Thus does the superior man live with the great mass:
He veils his light, yet still shines.

In a time of darkness it is essential to be cautious and reserved. One should not needlessly awaken overwhelming enmity by inconsiderate behaviour. In such times one ought not to fall in with the practices of others; neither should one drag them censoriously into the light. In social intercourse one should not try to be all-knowing. One should let many things pass, without being duped.

The changing lines
Changing line 1:

15

Darkening of the light during flight.
He lowers his wings.
The superior man does not eat for three days
On his wanderings.
But he has somewhere to go.
The host has occasion to gossip about him.

With grandiose resolve a man endeavours to soar above all obstacles, but thus encounters a hostile fate. He retreats and evades the issue. The time is difficult. Without rest, he must hurry along, with no permanent abiding place. If he does not want to make compromises within himself, but insists on remaining true to his principles, he suffers deprivation. Never the less he has a fixed goal to strive for even though the people with whom he lives do not understand him and speak ill of him.

Changing line 2:

11

Darkening of the light injures him in the left thigh.
He gives aid with the strength of a horse.
Good fortune.

Here the Lord of Light is in a subordinate place and is wounded by the Lord of Darkness. But the injury is not fatal; it is only a hindrance. Rescue is still possible. The wounded man gives no thought to himself; he thinks only of saving the others who are also in danger. Therefore he tries with all his strength to save all that can be saved. there is good fortune in thus acting according to duty.

Changing line 3:

24

Darkening of the light during the hunt in the south.
Their great leader is captured.
One must not expect perseverance too soon.

It seems as if chance were at work. While the strong, loyal man is striving eagerly and in good faith to create order, he meets the ringleader of the disorder, as if by accident, and seizes him. Thus victory is achieved. But in abolishing abuses one must not be too hasty. This would turn out badly because the abuses have been in existence so long.

Changing line 4:

55

He penetrates the left side of the belly.
One gets at the very heart of the darkening of the light,
And leaves gate and courtyard.

We find ourselves close to the commander of darkness and so discover his most secret thoughts. In this way we realise that there is no longer any hope of improvement, and thus we are enabled to leave the scene of disaster before the storm breaks.

Changing line 5:

63

Darkening of the light as with Prince Chi.
Perseverance furthers.

Prince Chi lived at the court of the evil tyrant Chou Hsin, who, although not mentioned by name, furnished the historical example on which this whole situation is based. Prince Chi was a relative of the tyrant and could not withdraw from the court; therefore he concealed his true sentiments and feigned insanity. Although he was held a slave, he did not allow external misery to deflect him from his convictions.

This provides a teaching for those who cannot leave their posts in times of darkness. In order to escape danger, they need invincible perseverance of spirit and redoubled caution in their dealings with the world.

Changing line 6:

22

Not light but darkness.
First he climbed up to heaven,
Then he plunged into the depths of the earth.

Here the climax of the darkening is reached. The dark power at first held so high a place that it could wound all who were on the side of good and of the light. But in the end it perishes of its own darkness, for evil must itself fall at the very moment when it has wholly overcome the good, and thus consumed the energy to which it owed its duration.

Wisdom is a circumstantial item.

Mokusen asked the woman: "suppose my fist was always open. How would you define it?"
"Deformed" she said.
Then Mokusen closed his hand and put it before the woman's face and asked again: "And now suppose it was always thus. What would you say?"
"That it is another sort of deformity" she answered.

This doesn't apply only to greed and generosity.

As for people receiving teachings: not all people receive them the same. Teachings pass from a good master to a good pupil. Bad masters, and bad pupils, can ruin the chain.

[totalwar junkie]

Yes, I know about those hexagrams, I have 2 different copies of the I Ching. I suppose you didnt realize most of that is metaphorical?

Like I said, much of it is very obscure and takes much meditation. People study Taoism for entire life times and still never understand it. Its silly that you, at whatever age you are, would assume you already understand it. Especialy when your understanding of it is just a simple literal interpretation that anyone could come to after reading it once.

A good teacher, would teach his teachings in such a way that they cannot be misunderstood. In the comparison between the Buddha and Jesus, its pretty obvious who was able to teach in a such a way that the teachings remained mostly intact and who was not.

[Ummon]

I do not assume anything, yet.

[totalwar junkie]

I do not assume anything, yet.

Well, it seems to me that you are, as you are citing it to me as a literal interpretation being the true teaching.