Byzantine-Hungarian Wars

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Hey Guys..
I'm the leader of a mod about MTW Kingdoms named 'Komnenoi Total War'..
It''ll cover the reign of the Komnenian Emperors and most importantly the reign of Manuel I Komnenos, who fought numerous battles versus the Magyars/Hungarians..
Basically I have almost zero information about the Magyar units of those years and of the structure of the Hungarian Kingdom so I would like to ask if you want to take part in the mod..

[matija191]

Hey Guys..
I'm the leader of a mod about MTW Kingdoms named 'Komnenoi Total War'..
It''ll cover the reign of the Komnenian Emperors and most importantly the reign of Manuel I Komnenos, who fought numerous battles versus the Magyars/Hungarians..
Basically I have almost zero information about the Magyar units of those years and of the structure of the Hungarian Kingdom so I would like to ask if you want to take part in the mod..

I don´t know if this information will help you, but croatian troops under leadership of croatian duke Dionizije, who fought alongside Hungarians in Srijem against byzantine generals Gabras,Brana and Andronicus, consisted of several thousands of cavalry,heavy-armoured cavalry (oklopnici),archers and slingers.....

[shikaka]

Recently I bought a book (the battles and campaigns of the Árpád and Anjou age) which have a few Hungarian-Byzantine battles which you might be able to use.


This era in Hungary was mainly a try to establish the kingdom as a regional power. The main aims were Halics (Galicia or Halychyna), the southern territories (Serbia), and Dalmatia.

The hungarian army was special because it didn't have huge number of infantry masses, but lots of skirmisher (archer) cavalry and heavy cavalry.

From hungarian perspective, the aims of Byzantium was to
- not allow Hungary to become a bigger threat
- break up the alliances (Manuel defeated the hungarian-serbian mixed army 1155)

Byzantium strapped Hungary of Dalmatia, Bosnia and Serbia. Also, contenders to the throne were often payed by the emperor, to attack Hungary. (notable contenders are Boris and István IV.) From hungarian side, sacking tours into rus territory and Byzantium were quite common (every or every second year)


The hungarian battle plan for the Battle of Zimony in 1167:

- armored heavy cavalry in the middle in two rows
- horse archers on the wing (some might be pechenegs)
- armored heavy cavalry in reserves
Heavy cavalry crushes center, while lighter cavalry tries to hold the Byzantine cavalry. After center is crushed, the flanks can be taken care by the heavies 1 at a time.

This tactic of heavy cavalry charge straight to the center, worked against the Byzantines in 1129, 1154 and 1166.
It seems that the hungarians realized that the Byzantines don't use enough armor, even after the emperor started hiring heavy mercenaries (normann, italian, serbian). This 'charge the middle' was only used against Byzantium, against Venice and HRE the skirmishers had much more roles and heavy cav was used for finishing.

In Zimony the Byzantines won with better leadership, but both armies were bled dry. The hungarians left the battlefield because of the huge casualities, but the Byzantines didn't have anyone fresh or not wounded to go after them.

Also, I read in two books that the hungarians were 'surprised by the maces of Byzantines'.
I find this a bit strange though...

[AnthoniusII]

@shikaka
By "Battle of Zimony"do you refair to this?
[Battle of Sirmion]
According to the historians of that era the Roman center (byzantine) was never crashed but held with the Serbian heavy spearmen and Varangian mercenaries.
Also both sides had heavily armored cavalry (the sholars mention that swords had no affect against both sides cavalrymen) but the Varangian axes and the Archontopolla (cataphract style cavalry) maces made the finall diference in Roman favor.

[shikaka]

@shikaka
By "Battle of Zimony"do you refair to this?
[Battle of Sirmion]
According to the historians of that era the Roman center (byzantine) was never crashed but held with the Serbian heavy spearmen and Varangian mercenaries.
Also both sides had heavily armored cavalry (the sholars mention that swords had no affect against both sides cavalrymen) but the Varangian axes and the Archontopolla (cataphract style cavalry) maces made the finall diference in Roman favor.

I think yes, but this guy:
"Come "Dionisios" (leader of the Hungarian army)" is Dénes I guess?


You are right, Zimony is an example when the hungarians didn't manage to break the Byzantine center. They were successful in this earlier though.

This was just an example, if someone makes a mod around emperor Manuel, he should portray hungairans with heavy cav and horse archers, with relatively small number of (ineffective) infantry.



edit:
where did you get this battle description from?
Do you have more with hungarians on one side?

[AnthoniusII]

I think yes, but this guy:
"Come "Dionisios" (leader of the Hungarian army)" is Dénes I guess?

I beleive so .Romans (byzantines) usually gave greek names or hellenised ones to the foriegners.

You are right, Zimony is an example when the hungarians didn't manage to break the Byzantine center. They were successful in this earlier though.

Hungarians recently "accepted" the new western kind of warfare (knights).
The main problem for the Romans still was their "turkish"(steppe) kind of warfare. That is why they relied on scimilar mercenaries.

This was just an example, if someone makes a mod around emperor Manuel, he should portray hungairans with heavy cav and horse archers, with relatively small number of (ineffective) infantry.

As i said before Hungarians as former steppe warriors used in a very affective way their horsemen. Their infantry was not important for them and that is why fortified cities were very dificult targets south of Danube.
Fromj the other side Romans after the loss of the majority of Asia minor relied more and more to "medium" shock cavalry and heavily armored infantry.
Archontopulla (sons of nobles) were the last attempt to create a cataphract style ,non imperial unit.

edit:
where did you get this battle description from?
Do you have more with hungarians on one side?

Very soon i will post more battle descriptions that could be used in mods as "historical battles".
But never the less our team requires the maximum historical accuracy in the material it will be used.

[Hrobatos]

well my Adriatic will pretty much have this Hungaro-byzantine wars in given time period

[shikaka]

Hungarians recently "accepted" the new western kind of warfare (knights).
The main problem for the Romans still was their "turkish"(steppe) kind of warfare. That is why they relied on scimilar mercenaries.

Two things.

The addition of knigts didn't mean that Hungary forgot or didn't use the earlier methods.
In the other battles against western powers (Austria, complete HRE, czechs) they were still effective.
They seemed to use this kind of setup against Byzantium only in the beginning.


Also, while noone knows if Hungary had any heavy cavalry in steppe days (at least no metal armor was found by archeologists) it would not be a surprise if there were hungarian heavy cav before knights. At least huns, mongols used them, they also used them for frontal charges (in china) too.

Very soon i will post more battle descriptions that could be used in mods as "historical battles".
But never the less our team requires the maximum historical accuracy in the material it will be used.

I will pay attention to that part of the forum, great read!

[Csatádi]

Hey Guys..
I'm the leader of a mod about MTW Kingdoms named 'Komnenoi Total War'..
It''ll cover the reign of the Komnenian Emperors and most importantly the reign of Manuel I Komnenos, who fought numerous battles versus the Magyars/Hungarians..
Basically I have almost zero information about the Magyar units of those years and of the structure of the Hungarian Kingdom so I would like to ask if you want to take part in the mod..

Interesting Manuel I Komnenos ruled in the 12th century but your logo shows armours from around 1400.
Anyway you may find all the informations you need in the Magyar Mod files. Check your PMs.

[AnthoniusII]

Two things.

The addition of knigts didn't mean that Hungary forgot or didn't use the earlier methods.
In the other battles against western powers (Austria, complete HRE, czechs) they were still effective.
They seemed to use this kind of setup against Byzantium only in the beginning.


Also, while noone knows if Hungary had any heavy cavalry in steppe days (at least no metal armor was found by archeologists) it would not be a surprise if there were hungarian heavy cav before knights. At least huns, mongols used them, they also used them for frontal charges (in china) too.



I will pay attention to that part of the forum, great read!

I wont disagree ...After all when some people have a stable and affective warfare in use is quite dificult to change it in a short period.
If you see in the battle description there is a part of "Nobles" that was separated from the main "knights" formation. Maybe those guys still used the traditional warfare instead of the "new" one.
I do not put in the battle descriptions to large texts but instead i use pics inorder to help any modding team to create historical battles.
CBUR is mostly a "academic" project that wants to help whole modding comunity atleast in areas that has some humple knowlege.

[NikeBG]

Also, while noone knows if Hungary had any heavy cavalry in steppe days (at least no metal armor was found by archeologists) it would not be a surprise if there were hungarian heavy cav before knights. At least huns, mongols used them, they also used them for frontal charges (in china) too.

IIRC, Leo VI, while writing about the early Magyars (which he calls Turkoi) and Bulgarians, mentions that their nobles protect even their horses' chests with double-felt or iron armours. Naturally, if the horse is armoured (at the front), the horseman would also be armoured, which would constitute heavy cavalry.

Btw, I was reading about the first 3 crusades and their route through the Balkans a few months ago and wanted to ask you something about it. There were numerous mentions of a certain "silva/nemora/desertis Bulgariae" (Bulgarian woods/desert) between Belgrade and Naissus, which were slightly differently described (some crusaders described them as a great forest with almost no villages, others - as a hilly, slightly wooded terrain, again with no villages) and are said to have been purposedly left uninhabited by the Byzantines as some form of a buffer zone against the Hungarians. Do you know anything more about that practice (I know about the use of such buffer zones by the steppe people, but didn't know the Byzantines used it in Europe)?

[shikaka]

Btw, I was reading about the first 3 crusades and their route through the Balkans a few months ago and wanted to ask you something about it. There were numerous mentions of a certain "silva/nemora/desertis Bulgariae" (Bulgarian woods/desert) between Belgrade and Naissus, which were slightly differently described (some crusaders described them as a great forest with almost no villages, others - as a hilly, slightly wooded terrain, again with no villages) and are said to have been purposedly left uninhabited by the Byzantines as some form of a buffer zone against the Hungarians. Do you know anything more about that practice (I know about the use of such buffer zones by the steppe people, but didn't know the Byzantines used it in Europe)?

This phrase, in hungarian 'bolgár gyepű' is usually mentioned in relation with the magyar invasion of the carpathian basin. When magyars arrived, the area had scarce population. Transdanubia belonged to the eastern-frankish empire, the northeastern part to the Morva principalty (spelling?), the south was this 'desertis bugariae'.
Meaning that this was the border defense area of the Bolgars.

Later, it was used in the same way by Hungary too.


The area changed hands frequently, and I think even if they wanted, the Byzantines didn't have a chance to properly build up infrastructure here. Also even in peace time, raids from all involved into opposing territory was quite common.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Interesting Manuel I Komnenos ruled in the 12th century but your logo shows armours from around 1400.
Anyway you may find all the informations you need in the Magyar Mod files. Check your PMs.

It's too early for the mod to have accurate signatures..
I just liked that and put it.. I know there were not such armors back then..

Thanks for the info guys, I was kinda busy and couldn't answer..

[AnthoniusII]

IIRC, Leo VI, while writing about the early Magyars (which he calls Turkoi) and Bulgarians, mentions that their nobles protect even their horses' chests with double-felt or iron armours.

The captives Magyar warriors that called Turkoi (Turks) named Vardariotae because of the main directions of their raids.
They forced to settle north of Andianopolis and south of Phillipoupolis as a "reaction" force to any new unrest.
That name (turks) lead modern turks to claim that Vardariotae were "turkomans" or Seljucks.

[ST. Toma]

Hail!
About the Hungarian Árpád era Army:
The most of the army was cavalry. The infantry was lightly armored peasants and poorer freemen, but they rarely participated in campaigns, just for auxiliary troops.
The cavalry had these forms:
Real light cavalry, fought as steppe peoples. These cavalry was recruited from the so called auxiliary peoples, like Pechenegs, Szeklers, Calisians (Muslim Khwarezmian Alans and Volga Bulgars), and after the Mongol Invasion, Cumans and partly Jasons (Caucasian Alans) and Tartars.
There were ethnic Hungarian light cavalry (or medium cavalry). They were freemen and serfs of the castle zhupanates (várispánság) and of the counties. These warriors were called Tegzesek (Pharetrarii in Latin) in later era. They were mostly cavalry archers with long sword, axe etc, and sometimes with shorter lances. They were the backbone of the Árpád era army.
The third part was the poorer nobles and warriors of the towns. They were medium cavalry, their primarly weapon was lance, but they didn't had knigtly armour, just leather and padded armor. Most of them had bows as secondary weapon.
The elite part of the Hungarian army was the real heavy cavalry. The foreigner knights and the knights of the royal court and later the knights of the Orders. These was the smallest, but the best part of the army. Some Hungarian knights also had bows.
The 2nd and 3rd part were medium or semi-heavy cavalry, they were the biggest part of the army.
These units are in Magyar Mod. Medium cavalry is Lancers and Royal Servients.
If you want information about the Hungarian-Byzantine wars, there is a good Hungarian book: Somogyi-B. Szabó: Elfeledett háborúk. Magyar-bizánci harcok...

In the battle of Zimony/Sirmion/Zeugme/Zemun, the Hungarians used a chivalric battle formations, cause of Dénes' belief, that the elite knights are enough to beat the whole Greek army. In the first lines there were the Bohemian, Saxon and Hungarian knights. After them there were the medium cavalry. In the wings there were the Calisians and Tegzesek, but they weren't use as skirmishers, and in hand-to-hand combat, they couldn't stand against Byzantine heavy cavalry troops. In the and of the Hungarian army there were some Light infantry (perhaps poorer troops of the southern counties and castles). Dénes wanted to fight a Western knight style battle by his mostly Eastern (but not Steppe) style army against an other Eastern style army. So he made a wrong plan, and couldn't use the Hungarian medium and light cavalry well.

I'm now writing my diploma piece about the Hungarian medium cavalry, so I read very many books about Hungarian warfare.
I hope I could help you!

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Thank you and +rep, this was nice info..
So, do you guys have a ready Magyar unit roster (like the Byzantine one) so I can use it in my mod?

[Csatádi]

Thank you and +rep, this was nice info..
So, do you guys have a ready Magyar unit roster (like the Byzantine one) so I can use it in my mod?

You find all the informations you need in the Magyar Mod files. I think the game files contain far more exact informations than a roster.

[NikeBG]

This phrase, in hungarian 'bolgár gyepű' is usually mentioned in relation with the magyar invasion of the carpathian basin. When magyars arrived, the area had scarce population. Transdanubia belonged to the eastern-frankish empire, the northeastern part to the Morva principalty (spelling?), the south was this 'desertis bugariae'.
Meaning that this was the border defense area of the Bolgars.

Yes, I know the FBE used such buffer zones, especially on its northern borders, but the one I'm talking about, which is mentioned by many of the crusaders that passed through it, is located not to the north, but to the south of the Danube, between Belgrade and Naissus/Nish. And they claim that it was made by the Byzantines against the Hungarians. True, it might have been originally made by the Bulgarians (while the FBE existed) against the Franks/Velikomoravians/Magyars, but the crusaders reported that the Byzantines used it in their time.

[dome]

gyepű was originally the typical border defense of the nomadic magyars. It means that they let a strape desert around thier territory, where the enemy has no food roads and shelter.

d.