win-win-situations are deceptive?

[Templedog]

I have always found the win-win-situation very interesting. After thinking about it long and hard I realized what the win-win-situations never win.

For instance(7 years ago); I helped a bum get a hot meal. I felt good afterwards, and thought to myself "I did the right thing" believing I got "points" to get to heaven, because I was trying to follow the path of Jesus. All my catholic brothers believed that was the good thing to do, but deep down I felt guilty. I didn't help that bum because I really wanted to help him. I did it out of selfishnous.I did something good for someone and I felt truely truely guilty, the greatest eye-opening feeling I have ever felt.

The Bum, knowing that I was a follower of faith, knew that I didn't help him for the sake of helping him. He knew I helped him because I was also helping myself. A win-win-situation.

After drifting farther away from my original catholic beliefs for many reasons (way off subject). I now help people without the selfish stigma. I truely help people without expecting anything in return. There is no win-win, something I believe Jesus Christ honesty acknowledged.

I believe this is the biggest problem with society today. People try to follow the example of Jesus Christ, but it is impossilbe. We should actually take the path of Jesus Christ with his pure thinking.

any thoughts or insights into this way of thinking?

[Erik]

Did you realy only feel good because you think you scored heaven points?

I am an atheist but I sometimes give something to bums too.
I don't expect anything back but I do feel good about myself.
I am also a socialist so helping the needed fits my moral ideals.

[John I Tzimisces]

Christian moral ideals and Socialist ideals are rather similar, once you think about it.

It depends on what you think is a win-win situation. I don't do good deeds for heaven points, I do them because its good, and it makes me feel good that I helped someone. "heaven points" or what have you seem to be more of a by-product for such good deeds.

[Mr.Flint]

Strange, im neither socialist nor christian, yet i dont think of my gains when i help a person in need....

[John I Tzimisces]

Strange, im neither socialist nor christian, yet i dont think of my gains when i help a person in need....

Well, I don't help people to feel better about myself, I help people, and end up feeling better anyways. It would be greedy to expect to feel better by doing good deeds. motivation and whatnot.

[Mr.Flint]

Well, I don't help people to feel better about myself, I help people, and end up feeling better anyways. It would be greedy to expect to feel better by doing good deeds. motivation and whatnot.

Frankly i dont really think about feeling better about myself... im just doing it and thats it

[Templedog]

Did you realy only feel good because you think you scored heaven points?

yes, because he was a stupid looser. Once you come to this logic, you have to ask yourself, who is worth helping? I guess it is either all, or no one.

[Mr.Flint]

yes, because he was a stupid looser.

you mean you not he?

[Templedog]

the bum, now I would help him, because I choose to help all, instead of no one... but I have to pick and choose based on reason.

I think all catholics help on a selfish basis and don't realize it.

[Erik]

yes, because he was a stupid looser. Once you come to this logic, you have to ask yourself, who is worth helping? I guess it is either all, or no one.

In that case I doubt you scored any heaven points.
But I don't realy know the system.

Christian moral ideals and Socialist ideals are rather similar, once you think about it.

I think the teachings of Jesus is very simular to socialism, yes.
But Christianity is very different from socialism, interesting huh?

[Mr.Flint]

the bum, now I would help him, because I choose to help all, instead of no one... but I have to pick and choose based on reason.

I think all catholics help on a selfish basis and don't realize it.

Then you didnt "score" back then and neither today

I think the teachings of Jesus is very simular to socialism, yes.
But Christianity is very different from socialism, interesting huh?

proto-christianity was a form of proto-socialism

[Templedog]

yes, i agree, interesting.

the scoring didn't stop Flint? I don't want any points because I want people to know when I help them, there's no points behind it...no selfish win-wins. If the whole world was like this everyone would sympathize with each other in a true unselfish manner. That's just how I feel about it

[Mr.Flint]

yes, i agree, interesting.

the scoring didn't stop Flint? I don't want any points because I want people to know when I help them, there's no points behind it...no selfish win-wins. If the whole world was like this everyone would sympathize with each other in a true unselfish manner.

the fact that you consider him a stupid looser, means that you are a selfish person that even now, commits "good deeds" just to show how good you are to others.

[Templedog]

the fact that you consider him a stupid looser, means that you are a selfish person that even now, commits "good deeds" just to show how good you are to others.

yes, that was back then though. When I wanted points.

But, let's say there was no such thing as "heaven points". The bum and everyone would know that the person helping them truly is helping them in a sympathetic manner, with no points.

With no points he would truly understand why. Him knowing that I was helping him because of these heaven points, made the bum a stupid looser, just like I was a stupid selfish looser. (a loop thinking process)

get rid of the win-win, heaven points and we will all benifit. To sympathize with one another is a true form of communication and understading between one another. The way we sympathize now, is tainted with these selfish heaven points because there is no sacrifice by helping and getting nothing in return.

[John I Tzimisces]

In that case I doubt you scored any heaven points.
But I don't realy know the system.


I think the teachings of Jesus is very simular to socialism, yes.
But Christianity is very different from socialism, interesting huh?

Christianity is basically socialism with a Messiah and The Almighty tacked on. And thats coming from a future seminarian. (somehow thats gonna come back to haunt me...)

Not to say that is a bad thing AT ALL.

[Mr.Flint]

yes, that was back then though. When I wanted points.

But, let's say there was no such thing as "heaven points". The bum and everyone would know that the person helping them truly is helping them in a sympathetic manner, with no points.

With no points he would truly understand why. Him knowing that I was helping him because of these heaven points, made the bum a stupid looser, just like I was a stupid selfish looser.

get rid of the win-win, heaven points and we will all benifit. To sympathize with one another is a true form of communication and understading between one another. The way we sympathize now, is tainted with these selfish heaven points because there is no sacrifice by helping and getting nothing in return.

So the bum was a stupid looser because he knew that you helped him out of selfish reasons? thats some mighty logic.......

[Templedog]

So the bum was a stupid looser because he knew that you helped him out of selfish reasons? thats some mighty logic.......

well, stupid looser is kind of a bad choice of word I used. I was ignorant and didn't give a dang what his problems were at that time.

I wouldn't of helped the bum out without points because he didn't deserve it (I thought this at that moment)

we are both "stupid loosers" because we are both pretending I am helping him as if I gave a damn. Without the heaven points ever existing, (In a world without them) We wouldn't be stupid loosers, and the communication between us would be clear. I would be helping him because I could feel his pain on an understanding that there is no "god" and we have only eachother to care for.

sorry it's hard to follow, I have a hard time putting it into words.

[Justinian]

Even when I was a devout Christian type, when I helped someone it wasn't to score Jesus points.

[Ran Taro]

The only issue here is guilt.

If you do something that helps someone, feel good about it. I don't care why you did it. If you get something out of it too, that's gravy. Or alternatley, you feeling good could be the main thing and the other guy getting something out of it could be gravy. It really doesn't matter.The point is: overall something helpful happened.

Guilt is a waste of time. Use the energy to make something else thats good happen.

[Templedog]

Even when I was a devout Christian type, when I helped someone it wasn't to score Jesus points.

Yes, you could of helped them for many reasons, but no matter why it was, it was a win-win. You don't have to be consious at the time of helping someone of the "heaven points" you realize it all later, sometimes on your death bed. (like when your about to die, and you hope you go to heaven)