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Thread: Battle Field Ninjas and there Techniques

  1. #1
    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    Default Battle Field Ninjas and there Techniques

    I was talking to Kagemusha the other day about ninjas and there role in the game and he asked me to make a thread so everyone can chipin with ideas.

    First off id like to give a basic introduction about what being a ninja really means

    Ninja were the Ultimate Warriors of feudal Japan. Cloaked in darkness and secrecy, the
    Ghost-Soldiers of the Invisible Fist struck fear into the hearts of their enemies and wreaked
    havoc on those who incurred their wrath. The principles of these occult methods have not
    changed and apply even today.
    Some Ninjitsu ryu (schools) advocate the use of such equipment as shuriken, grapples, shaken,
    even poisons and firearms

    The origins of Ninjitsu are shrouded in the mists of time. It was greatly influenced by
    Chinese spying techniques, many of which are found in the Art of War by Sun Tzu. The
    word Ninjitsu itself originated during a war between Prince Shotoku and Moriya over the land
    of Omi in sixth century Japan. During this conflict, a warrior named Otomo-no-Saajin contributed
    to the victory of Prince Shotoku by secretly gathering valuable intelligence about the enemy
    forces. For this service, he was awarded the title of Shinobi, which means "stealer in."
    From this ideogram, the character for the word Ninjitsu is derived.
    Originally, the role of the Ninja was to gain information about the enemy and to sabotage
    his operations. Agents were classified as: Indigenous, meaning local personnel who gathered
    intelligence or worked for the Ninja on site; Sleeper, being one long in place, merely
    awaiting instructions; Doubled or Turned, a former agent of the enemy who spied for both
    sides; and Expendable agents who were used for only one mission and then left to fend for
    themselves. Such agents include both men and women, the female Ninja were called Kunoichi
    and carried out missions of assassination and sabotage, as well as espionage.

    heres a quote we can use:
    ancient masters have said, "A tree falling in the forest with no one to hear it, makes
    no sound; but, it falls nonetheless." So it is with Ninjitsu. A Ninja attacking a blind man is invisible,
    but he is attacking nonetheless.


    Uniform of the Ninja
    The costume of the Ninja is basically that of the stage handlers of the Kabuki theatre,
    who sneak on stage during scenes to help actors with costume changes, move scenery, or remove
    props.
    The Ninja uniform consists of:
    1.Black Ski Mask, as camouflage
    paint or "blacking" of the face is time consuming and cannot be quickly removed.

    2.Black
    overjacket, often reversible to disguise the appearance.

    3.Black Belt or sash.

    4Black Coveralls,
    with blousing ties at the wrists, elbows, knees, and ankles. And,

    5.Black Tabi, split toed
    socks made for wearing with sandals

    The traditional uniform also included the hakima which is a divided skirt for formal
    wear, leggings, and a light tunic of chain mail.
    Some Sensei's also employed a large, gray, hooded
    cape which was used to distort the silhouette, a true "cloak of invisibility."

    The costume of the Ninja was called Shinobi Shokozu.
    The blousing ties at the joints
    could serve to slightly numb the body to take impact in hand to hand combat by tightening them
    slightly. Or, as tourniquets to stop bleeding if the agent were slashed during swordplay.

    Black is considered the "traditional" color because it was used by the Kabuki stage handlers.
    But, solid black
    "stands out" at night among the true shadows cast by moon and torchlight. Therefore, most
    Ninja schools used brown, gray, or red uniforms.
    Red had the advantage of being black at night, with no sunlight to reflect the crimson
    color; a fact known only to those who studied light and shadow as a Neolithic science. When it
    came into the firelight, however, the color returned. And psychologically intimidated the enemy
    through the association of red with the fear of blood.
    This trick was also used by the Spartans of ancient Greece, who wore red capes to
    frighten the enemy and conceal any wounds they might receive in battle.

    also kage told me we could do animations for them so, im posting pics of how they modved , ill later post videos if possible.

    1. THis is the Heng Pu (The Crossing Step)

    By employing this technique, it is
    possible to move quickly and quietly in narrow passages, corridors, and hallways. In combat,
    this stance presents a smaller silhouette to the enemy. Also, when fleeing, one presents a
    smaller target. Note that tracks left by this method appear to travel in two directions at once.
    Much of the actual penetration of the enemy camp will involve traversing narrow alleys
    between buildings, or flattening against a wall to remain concealed in its shadow. This requires
    a posture which overcomes the width of the shoulders. In order to move forward, one
    must move sideways.

    2.SHE PU (SERPENT STEP)

    I thaught we could use this as an idle animation for the ninja coz he can hide anywhere on the battlefield.
    -Keep the body as flat as possible. The hands are kept palms down, near the face,
    with elbows close to the body, legs spread, and toes outward. The head is lifted to observe the
    enemy.
    To move forward, extend
    the arms and draw the left leg forward. Pull with the arms and the toes of the left foot.
    The weight is borne on the forearms and the left leg from knee to ankle. Thus, the body is lifted
    slightly above the ground to prevent scraping or dragging noises.
    This technique is also taught in every military service in the world.
    Most frequently called the Low Crawl and practiced under barbed wire while live rounds ricochet
    overhead to acclimate the recruit to battle.

    3.T’U PU (RUSHING STEP)

    We could use this animation for the intermediatory animation between idle and movement stance.

    4.CH’IANG Pi KUNG (WALL CLIMBING ABILITY)

    Sinc we are going to give the ninjas the ability to climb over Walls so i thaught it could look something like this.

    Also if u guys can do it,we could make them use a Grapleing Hook.

    This is how the ninja used to coil the hook before throwing in on the wall.


    SPIN METHOD OF THROWING THE GRAPPLE

    This method is employed when it is necessary to scale an unusually high wall, or where there is little room to throw effectively.

    HOOK METHOD OF THROWING THE GRAPPLE


    CH’IANG SHENG KUNG (ROPE CLIMBING ABILITY)



    The rest is from the OSprey Books for the people who dont have it.
    This is an armor Worn by the ninjas


    This is a collection of ninja equipment.


    Im sure most of u have the OSprey books about ninjas,so im not bothering about putting info from that book.
    Last edited by Darkragnar; November 16, 2005 at 10:27 PM.
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    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    http://rapidshare.de/files/7705381/J...jutsu.wmv.html
    Also heres a small video about some aerobaitics done by a member of Jackie Chans Stunt Team.
    also dont please associate this video with the ninjas, this has nothing to do with Ninjitsu exceot that the guy is wearing black and is very nimble.
    Last edited by Darkragnar; November 16, 2005 at 04:00 AM.
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    Osceola's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Oh jesus, just wait til Angus gets ahold of this ones..

    "Ninja" were the same as samurai. Just samurai who fought in a guerilla manner.
    Team Member <3

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    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    Woops i forgot to post the address,any way i have done that.

    And what on earth do u mean Cao Cao? i never said they were not samurais who fought in a guerilla manner, the very defenition of samurai is to serve ,and the ninjas did serve there masters or who so ever hired them,to the best of there capacitys.
    in that sense they were samurai's but also consider the following very carefully.
    To be a Ninja, indeed to even contemplate the Silent Way, one must be a hunter. This
    means that he knows the ways of his prey. He studies their habits, patterns of movement, and
    routines. In this way, he can strike when they are most vulnerable, or trap them in their own
    habits.
    To be a Ninja, an invisible assassin, one must be a warrior. This means that he accepts
    responsibility for his actions. Strategy is the craft of the warrior.
    To be a Ninja, one must be a wizard. This means that he can "stop the world" and "see
    with the eyes of God." This is the essence of Mugei-Mumei No-Jitsu, which is translated to
    mean, "no name-no art." Secrecy is the hallmark of being a spy.
    To be a Ninja, one must be strong, one must know, one must dare, and one must be silent.
    Member of the House of Marenostrum
    They call this war a cloud over the land. But they made the weather and then they stand in the rain and say ****, it's raining!

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    <takes a deep, calming breath> OK... No, still no good, sorry. I'll respond to this when I've calmed down a little more...
    "While [Emperor Go-Daigo] hears that Masashige alone still lives, let him believe that he will prevail at last!"

  7. #7

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    Actually, I'll point you here first: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...0&postcount=14

    But maybe in the morning I'll be in the mood to post a long rant about the attrocities posted above.
    "While [Emperor Go-Daigo] hears that Masashige alone still lives, let him believe that he will prevail at last!"

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    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    ok i agree with ur post? now what's ur point.If i used the term Ninja instead of Shinobi, all the above post is to develop the unit "Men Of Iga" which are merc's in the Iga province For the Ran No Jedai mod(Jedai No Ran?) so that Prom can get to work on there animations and unit design.

    i dident make this thread for anyother pourpose than to make the unit in the mod,so kindly do not infer anything from it, all the above is nothing, but unit info on how the animations should be in the mod and how the UNIT should look like in it.

    I think in fact it was a mistake to put this thread here, it was only made for the Development foroums and having spent the good part of an hour makeing it i decided to post it here as well.
    Last edited by Darkragnar; November 16, 2005 at 07:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngusH
    <takes a deep, calming breath> OK... No, still no good, sorry. I'll respond to this when I've calmed down a little more...
    When you've calmed down?

    You do realize that sounds stupid as hell dont you?

    "OMFG HE SAID NINJA OMG OMG THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS ACTUAL NINJA OMG!!!11! NINJA WERE SAMURAI YOU STUPID HEAD!!!11"

  10. #10

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    Ok, I am VERY MUCH looking forward to this mod, but I swear to god that if you put in ANYTHING from darkragnar's post I will
    avoid this mod like the plague. No offence to darkragnar, but virtually 100% of the information in his post is organised crap.

    Ninja were spies. Usually peasants or low-mid level samurai looking for work. There were no mystical ninja cults, secret techniques
    or anything similar, sorry to burts all the 14 year olds' bubbles, but please do some actual history research.

    You will severely damage a very respectable mod if you implement ninja like this.

    I hope you will consider this very carefully.


    <EDIT> Forgot to add, the black pyjamas are a purely hollywood invention, for the love of all things holy please do not include this. The best way you could implement a ninja is to make him a strategical unit, much like a spy, in peasant form in very simple clothes, mainly to avoid suspiscion.
    Candide fainted...

  11. #11

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    Im not sure why everybody is so worked up with this. In the mod we have talked about putting two types of battlemap and two strategig "Ninja" units.
    First for the Strategy map: Kusa, a spye and Shinobi, and assassin. For battlefield units we were thinking of putting in the Men of Iga, as special merc unit and rebels in the Iga province. These will be a little altered samurai unit. The other would be the siege "ninja" unit. Wich would be used as an stealth unit for sneaking in the castles and opening up the gates or attacking the enemy Taisho (commander) during a castle assault . This units power would be in its stealth capacity.Not somekind of uber powers. I think that the unit could be dressed as an light Samurai armor and maybe a black head wrap.The unit would be very small and it wouldnt have much fighting value against any kind of unit. What Dark Ragnar made here was that i asked him to collect some data about the Ninjas in the development forum, and the only mistake he made was that he went public with that data. And about the info, half of the stuff he posted was from Osprey´s Ninja 1460-1560 book by Stephen Turnbull. Which is pretty good source like the Other Turnbulls samurai books. :original:

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    Im not sure why everybody is so worked up with this. In the mod we have talked about putting two types of battlemap and two strategig "Ninja" units.
    First for the Strategy map: Kusa, a spye and Shinobi, and assassin. For battlefield units we were thinking of putting in the Men of Iga, as special merc unit and rebels in the Iga province. These will be a little altered samurai unit. The other would be the siege "ninja" unit. Wich would be used as an stealth unit for sneaking in the castles and opening up the gates or attacking the enemy Taisho (commander) during a castle assault . This units power would be in its stealth capacity.Not somekind of uber powers. I think that the unit could be dressed as an light Samurai armor and maybe a black head wrap.The unit would be very small and it wouldnt have much fighting value against any kind of unit. What Dark Ragnar made here was that i asked him to collect some data about the Ninjas in the development forum, and the only mistake he made was that he went public with that data. And about the info, half of the stuff he posted was from Osprey´s Ninja 1460-1560 book by Stephen Turnbull. Which is pretty good source like the Other Turnbulls samurai books. :original:
    Sure, and that's fine (re: what you've described as the ninja/shinobi in game), however way less than half of what darkragnar has posted is from the Osprey book. Most of it is from dubious "martial arts" books, and I believe largely from a Stephen Hayes book if I recall correctly. Stephen Hayes may be a decent/good/great martial artist or whatever, but his books are jokes and non of his pseudo-history about ninja has an basis in reality.
    "While [Emperor Go-Daigo] hears that Masashige alone still lives, let him believe that he will prevail at last!"

  13. #13

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    ninjas are damn cool

    "the serpent step"

    thats cool

  14. #14

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    Well, maybe this is good lesson to us all about what material post in public and what not.

  15. #15

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    Ninjas are like Santa Clause, that sneak into your house at night and steal your milk and cookies.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis13
    sorry to burts all the 14 year olds' bubbles, but please do some actual history research
    I'm 24, and I've done plenty of actual research.

    I know that much "ninja" info is probably false, and has been exagerated. BUT a lot of it is plausable. The mere fact that there isnt proof of certain things doesnt mean these things didnt exist. In fact it makes sense that there isnt proof doesnt it? Since families such as the Iga "ninja" family were very secretive.

    Anyway, I think its retarded for people to get so worked up. I mean you accuse others of being childesh or immature with your "14 year olds" yet I bet you threw a temper tanturm when CA added battlefield ninjas to STW.

  17. #17

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    Only three things are for certain.

    1. Ninja were Ronin, Samurai or just about any other person including farmers who acted as spies. This definition is the most vague because it encompases virtually anyone.

    2. Distinct schools of Ninja did exist that provided a sort of formal training in the ninja art to those they saw fit for various reasons. The ones we "know" of and being the most promient were the Iga and the Koga. We know they were allied but also faught one another due to the placement of their members being provided to various places that may have been at odds. Not because of any actual rivalry. Formal ninja training is not known to anyone and what we do know is a guess based on less then all the facts. The various schools of ninja besides the Iga and Koga are true and some remain today. However all other schools can trace their heritage back to either Iga or Koga. Reason being is that the Iga and Koga were driven from their lands and the those left alive were forced to make decisions to keep their respected schools (most likely just their families) alive. Some became Ronin or Samurai but many others joined various clans for mutual protection.

    3. Technically there's no way to prove 100% of any of this since the ninja did not keep good records. I wasn't there, were you?

  18. #18

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    It occurs to me that there's no reason to make the battlefield ninjas look like Samurai or some half baked Samurai. Unless you can actually code the game to have other units ignore the fact that it exists until it strikes. If you can pull this off my hat off to you.

    Otherwise make it stand out and make it "cool" looking so at least there's a bonus reason for using them besides having yet another set of light samurai looking guys to use. It's for the sake of gameplay value and has squat to do with history.

    The version from the Last Samurai would be somewhat accurate to the above since they obviously wore some Samurai light armor in that film except it was worn over the clothing not under it. Maybe make them look like that so at least its plausable and cool looking. Not just another guy in a Kimono and a headband.

  19. #19
    Darkragnar's Avatar Member of Ordo Malleus
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngusH
    however way less than half of what darkragnar has posted is from the Osprey book. Most of it is from dubious "martial arts" books, and I believe largely from a Stephen Hayes book if I recall correctly.
    First off stephen Hayes is an idiot, the above material is from a guy named Ashida.And yes the material is from a MArtial Arts Book,but have u ever wondered why would a guy look in a martial arts book about a unit??? I can tell u its not for historical accuracy thats for sure.if u still cant get it read on.

    Look here why the hell are people thinking that the unit "Men Of Iga"-as stated in the totme of uints are going to look like the above material.
    The above post is not for makeing a new unit, it is for implementing the ANIMATIONS for the unit, that is how the units move,has it ever occured to u guys that if i was giveing u some pseudo babble of how Uber the ninjas were , then why on earth would i be showing pics and writing about how to move??? wont i instead concentrate on there proposed killing power???That is the reason why i havnt used the Osprey books because they give me historical information not information on how to make animations for them.
    Read the Lines below there from my first post.
    We could use this animation for the intermediatory animation between idle and movement stance.
    I thaught we could use this as an idle animation for the ninja coz he can hide anywhere on the battlefield.
    and for the records im going to completly disregard Curtis13 unappropriate comments as they do no belong , if u dont like the men of Iga unit u could have told the maker of the unit list a long time ago,since u hadnt then i take it u dont have a problem with the men of iga.
    Well, maybe this is good lesson to us all about what material post in public and what not.
    Aye Aye laddy scratch one mistake that i wont be makeing in the future.
    Last edited by Darkragnar; November 16, 2005 at 10:42 PM.
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    Wild Bill Kelso's Avatar Protist Slayer
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkragnar
    First off stephen Hayes is an idiot, the above material is from a guy named Ashida.And yes the material is from a MArtial Arts Book,but have u ever wondered why would a guy look in a martial arts book about a unit??? I can tell u its not for historical accuracy thats for sure.if u still cant get it read on.

    Oh please please don`t say you got your stuff from Ahida Kim .... That guy is one of the biggest frauds out there! Though I have no doubt in the authenticity of the info you got form the Osprey book

    I remain....A total fraud!
    Last edited by Wild Bill Kelso; November 16, 2005 at 11:25 PM.
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