Barbed Wire

[Hakomar]

I don't rely on quotes. If I went off of quotes for my history research I would think all Japanese people are suicidal baby killers and Tiger tanks were invincible.

All those examples are isolated, and if using quotes alone you thought it applied to the majority, then maybe some common sense is needed?

[SMIDSY]

I will give you a perfect example of why I don't trust abstract action reports.


Perfect example:
The British recorded that of the 650,000 German casualties at the Somme, 350,000 were Austro-Hungarian POWs. After the war when the actual numbers became available via German casualty reports, they were ignored on the grounds that the British official record already stated the German losses...


Another:
The Holocaust ("6 million Jews murdered"). True. But that forgets the rest of the 16 million that died in death camps, including slavs, POWs, gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners, mentally disabled, etc. Another example of the selective memory of history.




If you want, I can look up artillery distribution among the British army during the Somme offensive to finally take that argument out of the mix, to perhaps better explain why their artillery was so painfully ineffective against German positions, but from what I have seen in this particular section of the TW community, there doesn't seem to be any particular interest in facts, rather perception of them by terrified teenagers peeking over the top of a mud ditch while being shot at.

[Nyxos]

Another:
The Holocaust ("6 million Jews murdered"). True. But that forgets the rest of the 16 million that died in death camps, including slavs, POWs, gypsies, homosexuals, political prisoners, mentally disabled, etc. Another example of the selective memory of history.

16 millions ? wow, thats almost half of the total of civilian victims (40 millions) and its totally WRONG, this topic is not about this but I just can't stand it when people found their point on something that is completely false. Nazi Germany killed directly (deportations, executions and so on) 9 to 10 million civilians amongst which they were 5 to 6 million Jews, a large majority one way or the other. In death camps however, 500 000 NON Jews were killed not your outrageous 10 million (and an official 5 185 000 Jews).
Of course, the numbers are probably higher, but not that high.


Back on the barbed wire, I would like to stress that a HE shell (like any other explosive) does not disintegrate stuff, it breaks what can be broken and just moves everything around. So one artillery shell in a barbed wire portion will probably create a gap, but a second shot might just fill it up again. Your picture is actually a good example of that. You can see one shell hole and a big pile of mess all around it.
If you have ever seen a real explosion in your life, you would know that it just creates a mess with whats already there.

[SMIDSY]

If you have ever seen a real explosion in your life, you would know that it just creates a mess with whats already there.

So are you implying you have seen the effects of massed heavy artillery in person then (don't give me that Army BS about 150mm howitzer being "heavy artillery", we are talking 200mm, 300mm, and so on.)



This is getting silly. I'm out, this is a waste of my time and patience.

[LawL_LawL]

Hahahaha amazing... so discount the opinions of the people that where actualy there!

Excellent!

I feel even if I came to you house with some barbedwire and a HE shell I still couldnt convince you...

Problem with this is, if this ''I was there'' thing entitled someone to be true, Germans in WW2 supposedly employed more than 50% Tiger Is on the Western Front. As time and time again, retarded reporters in the field stumble across a Panzer 4 of some kind that was knocked out, they snap a picture, and put in a caption along the lines of ''Another Tiger knocked out!''

As for the wire debate, I'm inclined to agree with the statements that it CAN be removed, because if you can put a Bangalore under it, guess what? A shell can detonate below it, or within it, and send the wire away from the blast, and assuming its a HE shell, potentially remove the wire. And yes, as stated countless times before, the British artillery barrage at the Somme was such a rediculous waste of shrapnel shells. The pre-assault barrage failed to achieve EVERY expectation levied against it, for example, German troops simply went under, even the most basic little underground position rendered the ''heavy'' shelling, useless. Furthermore, the craters definately did not help infantry and cavalry in the coming assault.

This mod needs distinction between Shrapnel and HE shells, make the former more anti-personnel, and latter more effective against buildings and emplacements.

As a solution to having wire, why not have a preset defensive position for armies ''Entrenched'' and include wire and other defenses, maybe making the wire very slow to pass through and capable of causing casualties.

EDIT: SMIDSY, I agree that massed heavy artillery using HE on wire can and most likely will displace barbed wire, but earning Godwin points with your last post really didnt do much.

Also, Nyxos, keep in mind Deathcamps didn't only house and slaughter civilians but POWs as well so your statement ''In death camps however, 500 000 NON Jews were killed not your outrageous 10 million (and an official 5 185 000 Jews)'' doesn't reflect the masses of prisoners brought to deathcamps, most of which would fall under the ''NON Jews'' category.

[oldboyhammer]

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that as the war went on they eventually used a form of wire cutting explosive that whilst effective at first was rendered obsolete by simply finding a new way to lay out the barb wire or something like that. I don't know whether the explosives were fired by artillery or not but it's probable that it was some form of charged explosive. I dunno, I'll try to find a link to what I read.

Perhaps the above could be portrayed in the research of techonologies or something

Although I don't agree SMIDSY's use of caps () I agree that relying solely on quotes from those on the battlefield is not as reliable as you would think. We all know that the accounts of the Battle of Waterloo from Wellington's officers are hardly reliable.

Although everything I have read seems to suggest that artillery was ineffective. However I have read an article here and there that state the reason heavy bombardment was ineffective was NOT because it couldn't get rid of the barb wire but because the barb wire was easily replaceable.

Here is my take on implementing barb wire into the game. It should definitely be included. This kind of warefare included the likes of trying to overcome obstacles whilst under fire from the enemy. Barb wire would recreate this. At the moment it's simply a case of two armies meeting up and exchanging fire. Admittedly, the mod has improved a lot since it's earlier versions. But the combat still has that Naploeonic feel to it here and there.

Put in the barb wire. If I can find a link to the wire cutting explosive then that could be a researchable technology. To combat that, you could reasearch a techonology that involves the replacement of barb wire, as I read it. Then eventually the tanks come onto the scene and barb wire becomes a thing of the past. It's still there but it's not as bothersome as it once was a long as you have a couple of tanks.

I'll see if I can find a link to that article about the wire cutting explosive though since my idea relies on the fact that what i read was true. Anybody else hear anything about this wire cutting explosive? I can't be the only one.

[Mayan-Man]

erm, i have seen a mast artillery barage, all the men in my dads side of the fammily have served in HM royal artillery redgiment, and i plan to join, as a result i have seen a modern demonstartion of massed artillery barage using 32 500m light artillery guns, used by the modern horse artillery in a rememberance parade by a joint force of the Gibraltarian 1st artilley, the britsh 3rd and 5th artillery, the canadian 7th and some other regiments, i was VERY young and so i cant remember all the facts, so i won't say i can prove anything, firstly because i dont entirley remember the event and secondly because barbed wire wasnt involved, but my grandfather is ex WW2 artillery and i would put my life on anything he says, so when he says "artillery probably could destroy barbed wire, but i've never seen it happen, and we tried alot" i beleive him, even if you don't, and i hope 99% of everyone else in this mod beleives him or the other hundred who have made statments so we can, as we already have, out number and out vote you so the team can get onto another aspect of the mod

[oldboyhammer]

Ladies and gentlemen (but mostly gentlemen I reckon) I give you the Minenwerfer. It's true that heavy artillery failed to be effective against barbed wire and the Germans realised this before the outbreak of the war. So they designed the Minenwerfer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minenwerfer
http://www.landships.freeservers.com...dh-mortars.htm
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...ww1-german.htm

They could either fire shells that exploded upon impact to clear up barbed wire, or they could fire a shell with a delay fuse. The delay fuse was used to try and make it more suited to destroy trenches and dugouts. These shells could penetrate a few meters into the earth, before they exploded.

During the artillery preparation before a battle they fell under the divisional artillery, and their mission was to clear barbed wire, smash enemy trenches or (shallow) dugouts and machine gun positions.

Also, it could clear a space 33 feet (10 m) or more in diameter in a barbed wire entanglement.

LawL_LawL has already mentioned the the Bangalore Torpedo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangalore_torpedo

[oldboyhammer]

And I've got more...

New fuses for shells began to arrive in early 1917, causing HE shells to explode on contact with barbed wire “tearing it to shreds and ripping great gaps through which the attacking troops could pour."

The seven day prepatory barrage - the “Week of Suffering” as the German defenders called it - dropped 50,000 tons of explosives on the Ridge, and the 106 fuse made short work of much of the barbed wire impeding the way.

Quotes taken from here. Just do a search for anything barbed wire related.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/...w-does-it-work

So it would appear that during the beginnings of the war there was great difficulty in dealing with barbed wire. But as the war progressed and the introduction of more reliable weaponry, barbed wire wasn't as much a headache as it used to be during the earlier stages.

Also...

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...arbed-wire.htm

According to this, a new type of barbed wire that was armoured was introduced to make it tougher to cut. It's also worth noting that apparently there was a difference between the barbed wire used by the Germans. It was thicker so when the Allies tried to us their cutters they couldn't cut it.

So, I think all of this could be implemented through the reasearchable technology. One for barbed wire and one for the new improved artillery shells.

['Gunny]

The HE shells werent that effective, they tried to make a speical barbed wire bomb even because it wasnt effective, the bomb was not very effective too because they didnt have the proximity fuse technology down pat yet and it was only after the war it was made useful, the best way to cut barbed wire was to send some poor sould into no-mans land to take it out

EDIT: in regards to the Somme

But the artillery failed. The shells were not powerful enough to break down into the German dug-outs (which were up to 9 metres deep), and the shrapnel shells, which consisted merely of cases filled with ball-bearings, did not destroy any of the wire, but simply made it more tangled and impassable.

[oldboyhammer]

The HE shells werent that effective, they tried to make a speical barbed wire bomb even because it wasnt effective, the bomb was not very effective too because they didnt have the proximity fuse technology down pat yet and it was only after the war it was made useful, the best way to cut barbed wire was to send some poor sould into no-mans land to take it out

EDIT: in regards to the Somme

But the artillery failed. The shells were not powerful enough to break down into the German dug-outs (which were up to 9 metres deep), and the shrapnel shells, which consisted merely of cases filled with ball-bearings, did not destroy any of the wire, but simply made it more tangled and impassable.

I'm aware of that but we all know that the Battle of the Somme was a disaster where the British Army was concerned.

[.Mitch.]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...arbed-wire.htm

^Everything and anything you want to know about Barbed wire, and how it is insurmountable with artillery fire.


Please no more about whether or not barbed wire can be overcome with artillery. The simple fact of the matter is it can't be, and that has now been proven numerous times with varying sources.

Let us get back onto the topic of how barbed wire will be represented in this mod.

[oldboyhammer]

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...arbed-wire.htm

^Everything and anything you want to know about Barbed wire, and how it is insurmountable with artillery fire.


Please no more about whether or not barbed wire can be overcome with artillery. The simple fact of the matter is it can't be, and that has now been proven numerous times with varying sources.

Let us get back onto the topic of how barbed wire will be represented in this mod.

What about the use of the artillery towards the end of the war as put forward in the quotes I provided. You can't ignore that.

New fuses for shells began to arrive in early 1917, causing HE shells to explode on contact with barbed wire “tearing it to shreds and ripping great gaps through which the attacking troops could pour."

The seven day prepatory barrage - the “Week of Suffering” as the German defenders called it - dropped 50,000 tons of explosives on the Ridge, and the 106 fuse made short work of much of the barbed wire impeding the way.

I'm not saying barbed wire was completely destroyed by artillery. What I am saying is that advances in artillery and artillery shells throughout the war saw artillery becoming more effective in the removal of barbed wire as an obstacle. It still required quite a bit of bombardment to remove it though.

The Battle of the Somme is a bad example to use as a generalisation of all artillery over the course of the war since it was only halfway through the war and the British Army didn't have a clue what they were doing. I think it's a great disservice to say without a doubt that artillery didn't do a single thing to remove barbed wire throughout the entirely of the war.

You should read this:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/entry.ph...argames-Part-I

This is good article about the British end of artillery advancement including lessons learned after the Battle of the Somme.

And just so I'm not off topic, this I believe should at least be portrayed in the mod with the use of technology research. I don't deny the fact heavy artillery was ineffective against barbed wire in the early stages of the war especially where the British Army was concerned. However as the war continued there were advancements on both sides and this saw effective use of artillery to remove barbed wire. And the response to this was to make the barbed wire stronger which saw the introduction of armoured barbed wire.

Technological research can imitate this progress in artillery and barbed wire advances.

[oldboyhammer]

Yes you guys I am unforgiving in my pursuit to prove you wrong.

Hopefully this will be enough to prove to you guys and the mod leaders that artillery WAS effective against barbed wire in the later stages of World War I and crush this common misconception that it couldn’t do diddly squat.

This concerns the Battle of Vimy Ridge fought in April 1917 and the introduction of the No 106 HE fuse.

Quote from Wikipedia

The introduction of the instantaneous No. 106 fuse greatly improved the effectiveness of the artillery since this fuse burst reliably with the slightest of contact, unlike older timed fuses, making it especially effective at cutting barbed wire before the advance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vimy_Ridge

To further support it I found this alternative quote

Early in the war, there was no reasonable way to deal with barbed wire. The only way to break it up was an artillery barrage, and both kinds of artillery shells, shrapnel and heavy explosive, had serious drawbacks. Shrapnel was ineffective for obvious reasons. Heavy explosive left large craters which rendered the ground impassable by the infantry. Just before Vimy, a new fuse, the 106, had been developed which caused the shell to explode on impact. With this new fuse, shells destroyed barbed wire quite effectively without leaving large craters.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3009938

This particular tidbit was taken from the Journal of the Operational Research Society by JS Finan and WJ Hurley of The Royal Military College of Canada.

And also this one confirms yet again the effectiveness.

it proved particularly effective against barbed wire. The No. 106 came into use with the BEF in early 1917, and although it never completely replaced the No.101 and its variants it became the most widely used, and certainly the most effective HE fuse.

The British Army in World War I (the link was massive)

So, there we go, proof in the writing or text. So can we at least agree that artillery was effective in the later stages of the war?

[Aanker]

Even though this may be correct, I believe that it quite simply is impossible to cause damage to Chevaux-de-frise (or any deployed objects/obstacles for that matter).

[.Mitch.]

Well considering the fact that artillery couldn't do anything about barbed wire for 99% of the war and don't forget bangalores torpedos and tanks where invented to overcome it, because artillery did nothing.

Other than that, I think its just overcomplicating things to have it as a destructable item, the player wont be fielding enough units to have any barbed wire they set up, actualy warrant any type of destruction feature.

[King Sama]

Even though this may be correct, I believe that it quite simply is impossible to cause damage to Chevaux-de-frise (or any deployed objects/obstacles for that matter).

I've seen it destroyed but then again it could be because I ran dozens of horses directly into it...

Anyways, does this argument even matter? Unless items can be made destructible, the only option we have is to see how CA did it.

[Audacia]

Just my two cents here, and I also think this topic could possibly be closed because its just back and forth...

Anyways before anyone closes it I just wanted to say, no matter what the team does with any aspect of this mod someone, or a group of people, will disagree, or be disappointed with something. An all of us, as mature people I would hope, should really disregard the one or two things we disagree about and focus on the amazing progress this mod has made, and make damn well sure we support it. So let's cool down, chillax, and present our opinions in a dignified manner (as many of you have already done).

And maybe, just maybe, rep the entire team one last time and thank them for all of the hours they have put it in from their precious lives in order to make such a wonderful mod available to us, for FREE!

/End rant

[LawL_LawL]

Just my two cents here, and I also think this topic could possibly be closed because its just back and forth...

Anyways before anyone closes it I just wanted to say, no matter what the team does with any aspect of this mod someone, or a group of people, will disagree, or be disappointed with something. An all of us, as mature people I would hope, should really disregard the one or two things we disagree about and focus on the amazing progress this mod has made, and make damn well sure we support it. So let's cool down, chillax, and present our opinions in a dignified manner (as many of you have already done).

And maybe, just maybe, rep the entire team one last time and thank them for all of the hours they have put it in from their precious lives in order to make such a wonderful mod available to us, for FREE!

/End rant

Well seems like I have 2 people to oppose now , no but really, wasn't there some kind of research showing the processes the human mind goes through to effectively win an arguement, and that it was good for your brain?

Last thing im going to say about the wire before something happens is that, if you can jam a Bangalore under wire, isn't it kind of obvious a shell may be engineered to or even ''naturally'' produce the same effect? eg, upon impact, fulminates activate secondary charge, burning down to detonate primary, thus allowing the shell to dig deeper into the wired defences, as if someone had done the same with a Bangalore.

Now, back to game implementation of wire, every emplacement in pre-battle seems to be invincible, except mines of course. Is there a way to make it so that, in pre-battle deployment, selecting the Chevaux-de-Frise/Barbed wire, deploys the stakes used in battle, but maybe multiple rows, if thats achievable. Oh and my mentioning of mines made me think, will mines be implemented in the future?

[.Mitch.]

Last thing im going to say about the wire before something happens is that, if you can jam a Bangalore under wire, isn't it kind of obvious a shell may be engineered to or even ''naturally'' produce the same effect? eg, upon impact,?

LOL FAIL, I stopped reading after you said a Bangalore is designed to go under the barbed wire...

If it did the same thing as a artillery shell... guess what, it wouldn't have been needed then maybe perhaps possibly no yes, hello ?


Anyway... I'll restate as I said before...

Let us get back onto the topic of how barbed wire will be represented in this mod.

Anymore comments that aren't about this mod and are formulated around an argument that has already been decided, will be dealt with HARSHLY!!!!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I will set this guy on you...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I personaly think, just as an option to be placed instead of trenches.