The Existance of Purgatory.

[King Henry V]

As Christians, do you believe in the existance of purgatory as middle way or does one's soul go to either heaven or hell?

[Tigran of Sasoun]

Well since it was invented by Catholics to make it easier for people to be Christians, and since I am Eastern Orthadox, no i do not.

I think it is B.S, and i really, really do not like that idea and many other ideas that the Roman Catholic Church has invented.

[goldpaladin21]

Actually, the jewish faith includes sometihng similar to the concept of purgatory. If one goes to hell or heaven immediately after death, then praying for the dead would be no good, however jews recite a prayer for a certain amount of time after a persons death so that the person may be purified(Mourner’s Kaddish). Likewise, the catholics hold this true in the doctrine of purgatory.

"In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45)

That is an old testament verse that proves praying for the dead to help them be purified of their sins is in fact a teaching that is biblical. In order for all this to be true, a place such as purgatory has to exist.

[Basileos Leandros I]

Because you are Catholic.

A purgatory does not exist. It was made up by the Pope.....

[goldpaladin21]

Then explain why the Bible continually mentions parying for the dead. If you go straight to heaven or hell, then you wouldn't need others to pray for you.

[Justinian]

however jews recite a prayer for a certain amount of time after a persons death so that the person may be purified(Mourner’s Kaddish).

If you look at the translation of the Kaddish (I've been saying it all my life ) you will note that every word is a word of praise to God. It is meant to show honor to God, even in mourning, not as a prayer for the dead.

[Hellenic Hoplite]

The papal conception of the purgatory is only a pope's way to become an inquisitor. :original:

[King Henry V]

But purgatory does have a logical place in my mind. Since Hell is for eternity and is the essence of pain, I believe that only truly evil people can be sent there. However, that leaves another 90% of souls. Do they all go to Heaven immediately? No. You only get a fast track ticket if you are truly holy and sainted. And that leaves 80% of all souls, those who have done bad things (but are good deep inside), or who do not believe, or those who take a life but without an evil reason. Hell would be just too harsh. They need somewhere to cleanse their soul. Which is where purgatory comes in.

[Tiwaz]

Why need to cleanse? As our sins are forgiven they no longer exist and there is no need for purgatory for cleansing them. God can decide if we are forgiven or not and that does not require any special rituals.

[Søren]

Why need to cleanse? As our sins are forgiven they no longer exist and there is no need for purgatory for cleansing them. God can decide if we are forgiven or not and that does not require any special rituals.

Exactly.

Since Hell is for eternity and is the essence of pain, I believe that only truly evil people can be sent there. However, that leaves another 90% of souls.

The Bible teaches that all humans are born sinners and worthy of eternal condemmnation.

However, that leaves another 90% of souls. Do they all go to Heaven immediately? No. You only get a fast track ticket if you are truly holy and sainted.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is to say that anyone who believes in God will go to heaven - no mention of Purgatory.

But purgatory does have a logical place in my mind.

Revelation 1:18 - I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

No mention of Purgotary anywhere in Revelation, or in the entire Bible, for that matter.

1 Timothy 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Jesus saved sinners... saved from what

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So, this is saying that whoever believed in Jesus would be saved.

But perhaps there are other ways....

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It appears not; Jesus is teaching that thorough him is the only way to the Father (thus heaven)

So, I would conclude that Purgotry is an entirly unscriptural invention of man for his own ends.


I know that a literal interpretation of scripture is anathama to many here; but please don't shoot me

[King Henry V]

So then there is no punishment for sins if you believe in God? OK, I'm happy.

[Kanaric]

The Bible teaches that all humans are born sinners and worthy of eternal condemmnation.

Jesus died for those sins. That was the whole purpose of his death wasn't it? Of course I know about the teaching of origional sin, but that aspect always confused me.

[Tom Paine]

So then there is no punishment for sins if you believe in God? OK, I'm happy.

Heh, and you get punished for being born if you don't.

[goldpaladin21]

This is where the Catholic vs. Protestant view on salvation makes two sides with opposing opinions on another topic. Most protestants believe in a once saved always saved type of confirmation of belief. The catholic church teaches that you could be saved but then fall from grace by doing bad things. Purgatory is a place for those who have NOT heard about Jesus(if you have and you reject him you are going to hell. Thats what the Bible says, thats what the church says). Purgatory is also for those who have died with sins and did not get a confession before death. Because the catholic church takes the words Jesus said: "Receive the Holy Spirit. And what ever sins you forgive on earth will be forgiven them and what ever sins you retain will be retained."

From that comes the teaching of confession which then ties into purgatory. The catholic teaching is that anyone who did not have their sins forgiven before death, but DO believe in Christ, their sins are forgiven through Christs suffering. The stage between death and the forgiveness that leads to heaven is purgatory. Pugatory only works because Jesus died for those sins so they may be forgiven in the next life.

Jesus himself mentioned sins that may be forgiven in the next life. In hell there is no forgiveness, and those in heaven dont need it. It only makes sense that another stage inbetween has to exist.