Experimenting on Elephants

**Phosphoricus** · July 25, 2010, 12:39 AM

Those who consider the BC 2.02 implementation of elephants to be unbalanced generally point out that the elephants are far too effective against units without javelins and too ineffective against javelins (which utterly decimate the elephants). This bothered me too so I tried some export_descr_unit.txt changes.

Reducing the stat_health of the elephant units made them somewhat easier for surrounding infantry and cavalry to kill but the elephants became only more vulnerable to javelins. Removing the spear_bonus_4 attribute that some javelin units had helps somewhat but not enough.

The problem lies in the stat_sec_armour value, which corresponds to the elephant itself (the rider's values are irrelevant). This field has three values: the first corresponds to the 'armour factor', the second to the 'defensive skill factor', and the third to the armor sound. Elephants prove especially vulnerable to javelins because the defensive skill factor is "not used when shot at," which automatically gives javelins (and other projectiles) a bonus over melee infantry. Arrows still do not usually devastate elephants because they tend not to have the high damage value that javelins have; good archers' arrows have damage of 5 or 6, whereas javelins tend to value at 11. If the difference between the attack value of the attacker and the defense value of the defender determines the chance of a kill (according to some formula), then the removal of the defense value from the elephant when defending against these powerful javelins greatly increases the kill chance. On top of this, some javelin units have spear_bonus_4 (a bonus against cavalry such as elephants), and some javelin units are armor piercing ('ap'), which makes only half of the defender's armor value count. These factors, considered together, explain the extreme sensitivity of elephants to javelins.

I'm not exactly sure how to balance this situation. Increasing the armor factor at the expense of the defensive skill factor reduces javelin sensitivity noticeably but increases the 'armor piercing' bonus drastically. This makes for strange behavior; armor piercing melee and javelinmen suddenly seem unusually effective relative to spearmen and basic infantry. The effectiveness of melee infantry against elephants is overall reduced by the change because the 'armor factor' provides all-around protection while the 'defensive skill factor' does not protect the flanks. It would be nice to have a basic armor value that is not affected by armor piercing or restrictions associated with the defensive skill factor, but no such thing exists.

Changing javelin units might solve the problem. Removal of the armor piercing characteristic or even reduction of typical javelin damage would make the interaction with elephants less unbalanced, but this would affect the balance of javelinmen against other units in the game. Javelins should remain effective against infantry; moreover, the 'elite' javelin units that certain factions rely upon should remain powerful.

Goals:
*Elephants should be made less sturdy; in particular, they should be vulnerable when surrounded.
*Javelins should be made much less effective against elephants.

Possible measures:
*Overall elephant sturdiness can be reduced by reducing stat_health, armor factor, and/or defensive factor.
*Javelin effectiveness against elephants can be reduced by increasing elephant armor factor, removing special javelin attributes, and/or reducing javelin damage.

Do any of you have thoughts on these ideas or other possible balancing changes?

**~~sughdian~~** · July 25, 2010, 10:48 AM

it's the same with third age

**Outlawstar15a2** · July 25, 2010, 05:26 PM

But Elephants were the battle tanks of the ancient world. Their supposed to be slightly OP and your supposed to use tactics and terrain to your advantage if you were experimenting you'd have notice they have paper morale after which they run amok. Use this to your advantage. Elephants have a hard coded fear of fire (which was carried over from Rome Total War) which many archers have in the form of fire arrows and they do not like being surrounded by a sea of soldiers I noticed that to will make them run amok. Elephants are best used to either flank the enemy or charge in with the initial assault so that they are either not surrounded and are supporting your battle line's attempt to push the enemy back or so that they quickly crumble the enemy thus negating the importance of their paper morale. Elephant will also run amok when they start to sustain casualties or damage.

**Phosphoricus** · July 25, 2010, 08:43 PM

Unfortunately the weaknesses you list, while historically accurate, don't appear prominently in BC 2.02. I don't think the elephants even have the can_run_amok attribute anymore. There were reports of people playing only using the elephants to great success. In my brief test I took a rebel city with just one elephant bodyguard unit, and the city had a decent garrison. Perhaps it is just too easy to pull the elephants out to make another charge.

Anyway, I'm hoping this thread can be used for discussion of possible balancing fixes for those who are interested instead of a place to debate whether or not it is unbalanced. Those debates have already occurred with no consensus reached. I figure that those who are still inclined to consider it unbalanced might be interested in developing a solution. I've focused on export_descr_unit.txt in my experiments, but still encountered difficulties. It may yet be possible to strike a balance or modify other files (perhaps descr_mount.txt) to solve the problem.

**Phosphoricus** · July 26, 2010, 02:28 AM

I've used a new method. I reduce 'armour factor' and 'defensive skill factor' to 0 for the elephants but increase the stat_health drastically. Unarmored elephants now have 10 hp, lower level armored elephants have 12 hp, and the highest class of armored elephants have 15 hp (the maximum).

Sensitivity to javelins seems much reduced and elephants cannot single-handedly take care of most of Solanki's needs. At least, in my brief test, I could no longer use just my Prince's Raja Guards to take Gwalior. With the original EDU, this was not at all difficult; just besiege with the prince, they'll sally, and just keep charging them down. With my new EDU, I did not even get close.

As I understand it, the elephants are now much easier to hit because of their 0 defense value but can inherently take more hits. Hence, upon getting surrounded and hacked at by a bunch of people for a bit, they start of go down, and they don't last as long under heavy fire.

If you wish to try it, remember to back up your original EDU and properly rename and place the one I have attached.

If this seems good to other Elephant Reform activists, new upkeep/pricing for the elephants is the next step to consider taking. Ultimately I hope that players will be encouraged to take advantage of the full and interesting roster available to the Rajputs while having much healthier finances (right now, the incredibly expensive elephant bodyguard units create, from the beginning of the game, a massive and unavoidable expense for Solanki players).

**Strelac** · July 26, 2010, 09:29 AM

Here is my recommendation to you:

First, adjust elephant stats to your liking when fighting in melee.

Then when you are happy with melee resistance, you can adjust effectiveness of javelins against elephants by simply adjusting the accuracy of missile units vs elephants. I believe the name of the file is battle_ai_config.xml where you can do this. There is three parameters which specify accuracy against inf, horses, and Elephants. Lower value means lower effectiveness.
That will of course effect other missile units as well, but I think you 'll take care of javelin exploit.

Regards -S

**matmohair1** · July 27, 2010, 11:28 AM

Will the Ghaznavids be using elephants in BC.3 ?

examples from DBA painted armies -

**wudang_clown** · July 27, 2010, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by matmohair1

Will the Ghaznavids be using elephants in BC.3 ?

That's a good question! I'd like them to use elephants, they were using elephants after all... but we haven't discussed eventual Ghaznavid roster rework. Elephants in Ghaznavid army are possible, though.

**Phosphoricus** · July 27, 2010, 08:52 PM

I'm not sure if this has already been decided for BC3, but I think that the Hindu states should have cavalry bodyguards instead of elephant bodyguards, even if the elephants are balanced. I've read of Indian leaders using elephants for royal tours but I have not read of them personally riding the elephants into battle (it certainly wasn't the norm), probably because elephants are dangerous and easily-scared military animals even when operated by those who make a living learning to control them. Some players may also prefer having a more 'normal' type of bodyguard.

I have attached to this post my next EDU revision which changes the upkeep for elephants bodyguards. The price is still high relative to other bodyguards but, in my testing, much more reasonable and appropriate to the nerfed elephants. I did not revise any other elephant upkeep costs because they weren't as intolerable as the upkeep for the bodyguards and should reflect how elephants are special, luxury military investments. Remember to backup the original and appropriately rename and place the attached file if you wish to try it.