A Mass Effect or Dragon Age Strategy Game?

[VOP2288]

An idea that I've been sort of toying around with...

Obviously it's been stated by BioWare themselves that Mass Effect 3 will finish the story arc surrounding Shepard but it certainly won't be the last Mass Effect game.

With Dragon Age, this is fairly new IP that has a lot of potential and even after their successful first game still doesn't have as many roots and "no go zones" in terms of what they do with it.

So, I'm wondering...would people like to see some strategy games based on these two IPs somewhere in the future? Granted, BioWare is pretty much only experienced and proven in the world of RPGs but I think if they took cues from Creative Assembly, Relic, and maybe even Paradox in some respects such games could be highly successful and fun.

The material is there.

Mass Effect would obviously favor space combat and could feature space battles like those of the Homeworld or Empire at War series but it could also have some ground combat given the amount of information we already have on certain militaries that utilize ground forces (Humans, Turians, Korgan, and certain spec-op groups of the Salarians and Asari). A preferred game style would be a mix between the detailed space combat of Homeworld with the fast-paced action flavor of Empire at War and ground battles similar in style to Relic's Dawn of War or Company of Heroes games (a mix between RTS and RTT).

A Dragon Age strategy game I think would favor a more Total War style: a campaign map featuring a number of different nations and races mixed with detailed real time battles that the player can command themselves. The only problem with envisioning this would be the lack of information we currently have on nations/races other than Fereldan, a tiny bit of Orlais, Orzammar/dwarves, and the Darkspawn. I think it would be quite fun to play as Fereldan, marching your army south to Ostagar, and commanding units into a massive battle with the Darkspawn Horde - watching the two armies clash and fight each other TW style.

Thoughts?

[Jaketh]

any Mass Effect one would have to like a refined Empire at war RTS

[Kamos]

Refined as in completely redo land battles.
I think both could be done well with Mass Effect being just as you said, I would prefer a Dragon Age type game to be more like old school rts games myself though.

[Captain Jin]

Dragon Age probably lends itself more to an RTS er any type of strategy game than ME does. ME has cool cinematic space battles but I'm not sure the potential is there for a homeworld or Sins of solar empire style game is there. I mean, based on the physics and such that they wrote into the game's codex, most battles take place thousands of kilometers a part. Also, battles don't last long unless it's over a contested Mass Relay or a planet that must be defended. Plus there's lots of tactical considerations they'd have to program in like discharging drive cores because the ships can only operate so long before they must do that and the fact that in ME the ships build up tons of heat-- that heat has to be disbursed or you risk cooking your crew alive. If they put a lot of stuff in there like that it could be fun and unique or fail utterly.

I think it's more likely that Bioware will take both franchises to MMO arena, especially once they see how Knights does. I'm not sure how I feel about that...

[VOP2288]

Refined as in completely redo land battles.
I think both could be done well with Mass Effect being just as you said, I would prefer a Dragon Age type game to be more like old school rts games myself though.

Eh...honestly I feel like a TW style could certainly capture the scope of Dragon Age war better. While some people still cling to it I believe that the gaming world has outgrown base building and Zerg rushing...

[gambit]

Eh...honestly I feel like a TW style could certainly capture the scope of Dragon Age war better. While some people still cling to it I believe that the gaming world has outgrown base building and Zerg rushing...

This is exactly what I was thinking. Ferelden, with all it's Teyrns, makes for a nice kind of medieval christian europe; holding lots of inner conflict but united when necessary. Add in the dwarves, elves, orlesians, the qunari and free marches (I haven't played awakening so I'm not sure how the other continents work) with the darkspawn acting as a sort of mongol invasion force.

Could have some fun with it

[Jaketh]

Eh...honestly I feel like a TW style could certainly capture the scope of Dragon Age war better. While some people still cling to it I believe that the gaming world has outgrown base building and Zerg rushing...

was fun in BFME2,

[Kamos]

Yes like all those epic battles where you see around a couple hundred guys! Truly massive in scope.
While I'm sure Dragon Age could probably lend itself to TW well enough I would much prefer old school. Personally I'm a bit tired of TW as the battles and map feel to shallow and this new trend of RTT that's become so popular recently, I love base building and collecting resources that don't magically appear from flags. I miss having to harvest many resources using villagers in order to build an army to fling at my friends. Don't get me wrong DoW1 is fun, CoH is fun but AoM is also fun, Empire Earth 2 is fun, C&C Generals(though not the best example) is fun to. A refined map campaign along the lines of DoW: Dark Crusade or something roughly similar to BFME:2 War of the Ring mode would work fine with it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dragon Age probably lends itself more to an RTS er any type of strategy game than ME does. ME has cool cinematic space battles but I'm not sure the potential is there for a homeworld or Sins of solar empire style game is there. I mean, based on the physics and such that they wrote into the game's codex, most battles take place thousands of kilometers a part. Also, battles don't last long unless it's over a contested Mass Relay or a planet that must be defended. Plus there's lots of tactical considerations they'd have to program in like discharging drive cores because the ships can only operate so long before they must do that and the fact that in ME the ships build up tons of heat-- that heat has to be disbursed or you risk cooking your crew alive. If they put a lot of stuff in there like that it could be fun and unique or fail utterly.

I think it's more likely that Bioware will take both franchises to MMO arena, especially once they see how Knights does. I'm not sure how I feel about that...

Oh they'd definitely have to take a few liberties regarding lore for gameplay purposes, no more so than Saren taking hundreds of rounds from three soldiers or a single shot from a sidearm though.

[VOP2288]

Yes like all those epic battles where you see around a couple hundred guys! Truly massive in scope.

*note I'm assuming your tone is mocking*

I'm quite sure, realistically, they could field more than that....if you're going off of what you literally see in DA than yes it's just going to seem like a hundred or so guys but the impression I always got from the events at Ostagar was that both armies were rather large...did you see all those men Loghain had with him? Or how deep the Darkspawn ranks were?

This is exactly what I was thinking. Ferelden, with all it's Teyrns, makes for a nice kind of medieval christian europe;

Exactly. DA would be perfect for a TW style. Actually I'm surprised no TW/BioWare fans have attempted at making a DA mod....heck they have Warhammer and LOTR mods.

[The Last Spartan]

Fantasy games that rely on the power of individual "heroes", magic, creatures of lore and such, tend to be prone to cookie-cutter gameplay, usually ending up like or being based off that of games like Warhammer Fantasy, Lord of the Rings or Spellforce, from what I've seen. Mass Effect has a bit of potential in a strategy game in my opinion, IF they are able to mix in both elements of interstellar combat and ground combat as well. Maybe placing the Terminus Systems, Systems Alliance, Turian Hierarchy, etc. as their respective factions or even placing them into one collective faction i.e. Terminus vs. Citadel vs. Reapers. Do you see where I'm going with this? I can already imagine that the Terminus ground forces are numerous, can deploy technology such as NBC warfare (which is illegal in Citadel Space), the Reapers may be able their agents (such as the Collectors) for their ground forces and their fleets are powerful, but require mass amounts of resources. Just a thought thought though. And I do however see Captain Jins points, but usually conceptual designers find ways to work around this (and knowing BioWare's endless creativity, I'm sure they can pull it off). After all, it is their job to figure things like this out, right?

EDIT

On that note, I'm hoping that a ME strategy game wouldn't be cookie-cutter when it comes to ground battles either. Interstellar warfare games are pretty much destined to play out like Sins of a Solar Empire or Homeworld (both are good, don't get me wrong), but ground warfare would ultimately be the deciding factor in gameplay. I personally think, that if they made it play out like Company of Heroes, then it would have much better quality. If it was more like Command and Conquer or Starcraft, then it'll just be a waste of money. And as for DA, a Warhammer type gameplay wouldn't be too shabby at all, but it just won't be anything special. Just my personal opinion though. I prefer games that are as realistic (but as fun) as possible.

[Kamos]

*note I'm assuming your tone is mocking*

I'm quite sure, realistically, they could field more than that....if you're going off of what you literally see in DA than yes it's just going to seem like a hundred or so guys but the impression I always got from the events at Ostagar was that both armies were rather large...did you see all those men Loghain had with him? Or how deep the Darkspawn ranks were?

Mocking implies me being negative, I had thought of myself being more playful than anything .

[the_mango55]

Mass Effect could work great as a RTS.

It would be a Company of Heroes style squad based strategy game. It would have 3 factions:

Council infantry units:
Human Infantry (basic all around infantry team, 6 in a squad)
Turian Infantry (support unit with heavier (& anti vehicle) weapons, 5 in a squad)
Salarian Tech Team (Stealthy tech team with awesome abilities, 4 in a squad)
Asari commandos (biotic team with good shields and powers, 3 in a squad)
Drell assassin (sniper, single man unit, stealthed)
SPECTRE (single unit, one unit max, good all around unit)

Terminus infantry units:
Batarian infantry (all around unit, 6 in a sqad)
Blood Pack Vorcha (tough melee/flame/shotgun unit, 8-10 in a squad, squad leader krogan)
Blue Sun Mercs (human and Batarian, anti vehicle, 5 in a squad)
Eclipse Mercs (Salarian & Asari, weak weapons but both tech and biotic powers, 4 in a squad)
Krogan squad (all around badass. heavy machine gun power without the need to deploy, beastly in melee, 3 in a squad)
Krogan battlemaster (beastly biotic/combat single unit, one unit max)

Geth infantry units:
Troopers (general geth, 8 in a squad)
Hoppers (fast tech geth, 5 in a squad)
Hunters (stealthy geth, 4 in a squad)
Destroyers (heavy weapons, 3 in a squad)
Rocket Troopers (anti vehicle, 5 in a squad)
Prime (Huge badass, singe unit, one unit max)

VEHICLES
Council:
Hammerhead
Mako

Terminus:
Mantis Gunship
YMIR Mech

Geth:
Armature
Colossus

There would probably be more but they would have to be new/made up

[The Last Spartan]

Now, now, let's not get ahead of ourselves. There are plenty of factions out there, it would be difficult to divide them all up - hopefully they would be able to balance it out well, like they did in Dawn of War (if you want to get technical, after all the patches and all that good trash). But I like that, that's looks pretty solid to me

[VOP2288]

I'm really not to partial to the idea of lumping all the races/cultures together into a Good Guys v Bad Guys v Badder Guys style...with time and given BioWare's plethora of creativity I'm sure it would be quite easy to develop single races/factions that each feel and play differently (much like all the races of DoW).

[the_mango55]

I'm really not to partial to the idea of lumping all the races/cultures together into a Good Guys v Bad Guys v Badder Guys style...with time and given BioWare's plethora of creativity I'm sure it would be quite easy to develop single races/factions that each feel and play differently (much like all the races of DoW).

Who says anything about good vs. bad? The people in the terminus systems don't really see themselves as bad.

While the Dawn of War expansions were pretty fun, the premise of having 2 or 3 branches of the imperium fighting against each other without even asking questions was pretty dumb.

To me, the council fighting together as a single faction and the Terminus systems doing the same makes the most sense, I mean how often in a real war are there a half dozen nations all fighting every other nation? Alliances are inevitable, and you might as well go with preexisting alliances. Plus it helps flesh out the factions and make them less monotonous.

EDIT: Or, if you really wanted more factions, you could make the Krogan and Vorcha their own faction (but keep the blood pack in Terminus) and add Quarians to the Terminus faction.

[VOP2288]

Who says anything about good vs. bad? The people in the terminus systems don't really see themselves as bad.

While the Dawn of War expansions were pretty fun, the premise of having 2 or 3 branches of the imperium fighting against each other without even asking questions was pretty dumb.

To me, the council fighting together as a single faction and the Terminus systems doing the same makes the most sense, I mean how often in a real war are there a half dozen nations all fighting every other nation? Alliances are inevitable, and you might as well go with preexisting alliances. Plus it helps flesh out the factions and make them less monotonous.

EDIT: Or, if you really wanted more factions, you could make the Krogan and Vorcha their own faction (but keep the blood pack in Terminus) and add Quarians to the Terminus faction.

My own connection I made with DoW was how the 9 or so different factions ended up feeling very different from one another in terms of their weakness and their strengths. It made playing the game quite fun as you could try out and master different aspects leading to your victory. I can see this being critical to an ME strategy game as well.

Sure the Terminus systems don't see themselves as bad but neither do the Reapers, let's face it, from the stand point of Council space and the greater Salarian, Asari, Human, and Turian races they are.

While it may make the most sense to lump the different races into one of three factions (Council, Terminus, Reapers) I just really see that as the game potentially limiting itself and not branching out to new and different things which could lead to BioWare further expanding and evolving the universe which they have created.

Would it have been satifying if Company of Heroes featured Axis v Allies in the sense that the existing British 8th and US Army would be ONE faction while the German Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite would be one in the same as well?

Or how about such games like Battle for Middle Earth? Sure, the dwarves/elves/humans/good races essentially try and come together to fight off Sauron and the forces of Mordor but would it have been fun if they had lumped the Elves, Dwarves, Rohan, Hobbits, and Men into ONE faction? No.

[the_mango55]

My own connection I made with DoW was how the 9 or so different factions ended up feeling very different from one another in terms of their weakness and their strengths. It made playing the game quite fun as you could try out and master different aspects leading to your victory. I can see this being critical to an ME strategy game as well.

Sure the Terminus systems don't see themselves as bad but neither do the Reapers, let's face it, from the stand point of Council space and the greater Salarian, Asari, Human, and Turian races they are.

And from the standpoint of the Batarian, Krogan, and Quarian races the council are the bad guys.

While it may make the most sense to lump the different races into one of three factions (Council, Terminus, Reapers) I just really see that as the game potentially limiting itself and not branching out to new and different things which could lead to BioWare further expanding and evolving the universe which they have created.

You're going to have to explain to me why having the races being allied would limit Bioware from evolving their universe. Having some dramatic council breakup just for the sake of a strategy game would feel forced and IMO would hurt the setting.

Would it have been satifying if Company of Heroes featured Axis v Allies in the sense that the existing British 8th and US Army would be ONE faction while the German Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite would be one in the same as well?

It really wouldn't have mattered about the german faction.

Or how about such games like Battle for Middle Earth? Sure, the dwarves/elves/humans/good races essentially try and come together to fight off Sauron and the forces of Mordor but would it have been fun if they had lumped the Elves, Dwarves, Rohan, Hobbits, and Men into ONE faction? No.

They aren't allied in the same way the Council is. I've never played that game anyway.


Three is a decent number of factions for a strategy game, most great strategy games have 3 or 4 factions in their original release.

[VOP2288]

And from the standpoint of the Batarian, Krogan, and Quarian races the council are the bad guys.

True, but now you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Naturally they wont see themselves as bad but come on...the Terminus Systems are all about piracy, slavery, illegal trade, murder, and rife with organized crime. If you cannot truthfully tell me that you don't see those things as wrong then obviously your morals and values differ greatly from most people.

You're going to have to explain to me why having the races being allied would limit Bioware from evolving their universe. Having some dramatic council breakup just for the sake of a strategy game would feel forced and IMO would hurt the setting.

Simple. Because if BioWare had to create separate races/factions that would force them to look into their own lore more extensively they would end up expanding it and adding new chapters and information to what we already know (which isn't that much in comparison to other popular "universes"). If they took a direction such as the one you outline for us their simply using the information we already know: the Salarian Special Task Group, Asari Commandos, Spectres, etc and just giving control of them over to the player....sure they'll have to be a little creative in how some of these groups and units look and feel but that's nothing compared to how much the universe of the franchise would grow if they had to come up with separate factions. How this is not easy to see is beyond me.

It really wouldn't have mattered about the german faction.

I'll give you that but what about if Relic had thrown the US and Brits into a single "Allied" faction. Would that have been satisfactory? No. Why? Because the Brits and the US may be allies but inherently have different features, whether that be their military doctrine, their weapons and vehicles, their uniforms, etc - this kind of thing would be magnified if you lumped Asari, Humans, Turians, Salarians, etc together.

[Kamos]

I can't really take the Terminus Systems seriously as a single entity.
Also as for potential factions go.
- All the mercs are divided only coming together on one specific occasion, should be recruit able by independent planets or organizations.
- The Quarians are very isolated but have a massive fleet, fairly outdated tech most the time though.
- Minor factions like Slavers, Gangs, and Pirates with potential for a few City State like planets of races independent from their main government.
- The Geth are obviously a prominent power.
- The Batarian Hegemony(main Batarian faction) can be taken somewhat seriously as they're probably the only thing outside Citadel space besides the Quarians with a Dreadnought(s?).
- Krogan should either be a part of a clan on their homeworld or part of the bloodpack with a few independent contractors, perhaps unified after Wrex/Wreav is done.
- The Citadel acts more like the UN, little practical power, the various races inside still compete for power even if they hide their guns behind their backs.
* Systems Alliance
* Salarian Union
* Asari Republics
* Turian Hierarchy
* Illuminated Primacy(Hanar/Drell)
- Vorcha are dumb decentralized killing machines only suitable as cannon fodder for or as mercs.
- Reapers I guess.
- Rachni are possible.
- Raloi is apparently a minor race recently discovered by the Asari but they're pretty far behind technologically.
- Lystheni Salarians which are apparently on offshoot of normal Salarians, based in the Terminus Systems and not welcome in Citadell space.
- And various little beasties for the any faction to deal with.

[The Last Spartan]

I think the Terminus systems is basically a label and collective of entities meaning "outside Citadel space", but just because they are all under one term doesn't necessarily mean that they like each other, let alone would be allied militarily OR politically for that fact. It would be difficult for BioWare (or anyone else) to make that sort of divide amongst a huge and chaotic collective. I like how in CoH, they divided their factions into different doctrines. Maybe instead there should be

1. Citadel Space
2. Greater Terminus
3. Minor Terminus
4. Reapers

What I mean by Greater Terminus is that would be factions such as the Batarians, the mercenaries, etc. Whereas, Minor Terminus I would refer to the Geth and the Quarians (it is very likely that the Geth and Quarians may work together in ME3, however it's just a theory, and they are just as likely to not work together). Where the Geth provide many of the Core units while the Quarians provide specialized troops. Perhaps have all four factions divided into their own doctrines? Like say Citadel Space should be divided into different doctrines (instead of entire nations) like an offensive, defensive and specialized doctrine and these doctrines pull troops from each faction while the most numerous makes their core troops. Sorry if I'm getting a little confusing, but take CoH for example, the Americans divided themselves into an Infantry, Armored and Airborne company, each with their own unique units, however, each possess the same core units (the Infantry Co, has Rangers and 105mm Howitzers; the Airborne has Paratroopers, and plenty of air support and the Armored Company has the Calliope Rocket Tank and the Pershing Heavy Tank) Do you see where I'm going with this? This is in terms of ground forces though, interstellar is an entirely different story, but that's not what we are debating.

Maybe it should go like this.

Citadel Space (core troops mainly Human)
- Alliance Stationary Force
- Joint Commando Task Force
- Turian Quick Reaction Force (QRF)

Greater Terminus (core troops drawn from the Batarian Hegemony)
- Blood Pack Support Group
- Blue Suns Support Group
- Eclipse Support Group

Minor Terminus (core troops drawn from the Geth)
- Quarian Expeditionary Force
- Geth Defensive Network
- Rachni Colony

Reapers I'm not too sure how they would work. Maybe their troops should be drawn from Collectors and Cerberus?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It is likely that the Illusive Man is an agent for the Reapers, considering that if EVERYONE (or maybe just Shepard) dies in the suicide mission, he is seen smirking when Collector vessels come to collect (haha) the Space Station IF you don't blow it up. I personally always thought the Illusive Man has some sort of Ulterior Motive to bringing back Shepard and telling him to spare the station from utter destruction.

As for Interstellar Battles I think it should go just like that as well: Citadel Space, Greater Terminus, Minor Terminus and the Reaper Fleet. Each drawing ships from their collective alliances (i.e. Minor Terminus would have ships from the Migrant Fleet as their core, while they draw troops from the Geth and Rachni).


Anyway that's my two cents on the matter.