Where do our forefathers fit in?

[Francisco Montana]

I'm going to as completely objective and open hearted as I can here. I was raised Christian. I was born into a chaotic mix of a mother raised by a Jewish step-father (from age 6 mo...and he flew bombers over germany for the Royal Canadian Airfoce before he rejoined the US Army Air Corps after we finally joined the fight against Hitler) anyway, I do tend to digress alot, I apologize. So many memories, ya know (that whole 'old thing' urgh). I was born very mixed. Jewish true HERO grandfather on my mothers side, and a true blue american farmer from Montana that joined the navy in '36 til '42 on my dad's side. Dad and Mum were very open minded religiously, for understandable reasons. They took us to church, but they didnt' force it later in life. They wanted us to choose our own path, having had so many options laid before us. They trusted us. The greatest gift an adult can give, is trust in a child's judgement. It's a testiment to their hard work and commitment to your up-bringing, after all.

It's a sign of utter respect from your elders. Something we parents can only pray for in return, from our children.

So where do we come in?

Sometimes I honestly feel that 'God' is the culmination of my anscestory looking down on me and judging me by my actions and how I do by their good name before me.

Of course, we'll get our detractors. Dad was a sick SOB and doesn't deserve my respect.

But then, I challange anyone here.

I can give you 10 good stories of mankind for everyone one terror you supply.


Peace be with us all,


Lord knows we need it.



Al.

[Tom Paine]

Actually you say they allowed you a free and open choice. Did they take you to churches of other religions? Did you ever get hellfire sermons preached to you? Did they explain about all the various religions? If not then you didn't have a choice as such, I'm afraid.

[LordSaradain]

Is it just me being stupid? I dont understand the point of this topic...

Fisrt you're telling us about your ancestry then this challenge, how do they 'go' togehter?

[Francisco Montana]

@ LordSaradin It's in the title and this line "Sometimes I honestly feel that 'God' is the culmination of my anscestory looking down on me and judging me by my actions and how I do by their good name before me."

@ Spueakus, this isnt' the mudpit, I was more interested in the religiously inclined opinions here.

If you are really that curious, yes I had a free choice. My parents made sure I was exposed to other religions, and the fact my Grandfather was a hero to me and a Jew, there was a pretty good chance I wouldn't be antisemetic. I was even taught that it was my choice to believe in God or not. I was exposed to a wide range man, keep up...I've lived from North America, Pacific Rim, Northiern Europe, South East Asia.....you see alot of things living in such a variety of places, trust me.

[Tom Paine]

But the question is, were you taken to other religious place? From the religious point of view, this is still relevant: if you were exp[osed in terms of sermonising to only one religion, then you will likely follow that religion. But if you are exposed to all you are likely to be more free-willed and free of influence.

[Francisco Montana]

If I haven't shown you I have free will by now, then this is all a lost cause, IMO.

Yes, I've seen a rabbi's sermon and I've seen a imman's sermon, if that's what you are asking. Those were done on my own, however, as I said my parents taught me to think for myself. Something I thank them for often.

[Tom Paine]

OK, that's what I was asking: did you go to other religion's sservices. That is the one that demonstrates the freedom of choice most don't have and that is where the ancestors come into it: they can indoctrinate one gently, or they can let one have free will. You and I are lucky in having been allowed near-completely free will in this aspect.

[Francisco Montana]

But anyway, I should be more specific here.

I am being weird here guys.

Some times I really do think that "God" is a culmination of all the spirits from my ancestors.

Like Grandpa and Grandma are watching me, and if I screw up, they frawn upon it, and maybe even cosmically they can influence my thoughts and my ideas.

I'm trying to go out on a fringe here for fun. But I do seriously think about these things from time to time.

I guess I'm one of those who are still "Searching" and yes, my 1st confession would be extremely long-winded.

Why do you think I'm here practicing on you sinners!?! =)


*Edit - I should repeat. I do believe in God. I'm just not sure what God is yet.

[Tom Paine]

That's called ancestor worship, and is an ancient practice. It isn't any more right or wrong than many other relgions, and as an old one has the virtue of surviving for a long time. Run with it, is my advice.

[RZZZA]

"Some times I really do think that "God" is a culmination of all the spirits from my ancestors.

Like Grandpa and Grandma are watching me, and if I screw up, they frawn upon it, and maybe even cosmically they can influence my thoughts and my ideas."


Some people would say "And I feel like Jesus is always with me, watching over and protecting me."


Bill Maher would call that having 'An imaginary friend, and you have a nuerological disorder'....

[Tom Paine]

Aye, but maybe we shouldn't ridicule it, if it what he believes. Of course, this doesn't mean we have to agree with it or not try to persuade him otherwise, but we shouldn't ridcule it.

[Francisco Montana]

That's called ancestor worship, and is an ancient practice. It isn't any more right or wrong than many other relgions, and as an old one has the virtue of surviving for a long time. Run with it, is my advice.

This may be the 1st time we've ever agreed Squeakus Maximus. It just goes to show, if at 1st you don't succeed, try, try again.

I'm very complex. I'm a Conservative Aquarian, you have a handle on my religious outlook, and I have many philosophers I admire, Jesus Christ included.

[RZZZA]

Of course, im sorry if it seemed like ridiculing you...I'm just pokin' a little fun....

[Tom Paine]

Lord Alameda, I also have philosophers I admire including, yes, jesus, but only as a philosopher... And I suspect, as with many, if we got to know each other well we'd find we agreed on more.

Glad I finally understood, though; sorry for my thick skull

[Francisco Montana]

I would PM you to spare this thread our lil one on one, but it's good for others to see. It's not your thick skull (we'll work on your socialism later hehe) it's the fact that we aren't face to face and it's hard to really understand what the words on the screen are asking or saying --especially when we have so many cultures and view points meshed into this TWC.

I would imagine many of us here would have an utter blast playing some darts and putting down a couple of pints.

Even those of us who appear to be at eachother's throats from time to time in the Mud Pit.

Back on Topic:
Ok,....According to your religion, where do your ancestors fit in, and how do you feel about my Pagan tendancies towards 'worshiping' mine?

[CrackerMonkey]

My ancestors fit in as just another brick in the wall. They're dead and gone.
It's fine by me that you err.. "worship" your ancestors. No problem at all. I think it's great, I wish I could be like that.

[Francisco Montana]

Actually I don't 'worship' them at all. I admire them all, falicies included. But I don't worship them.

Rather, I respect them to the Nth degree. I do believe in One God. It's so very complicated I can barely grasp it myself, really.

To further freak you out, I talk to them in my head all the time. And the scarey thing is --they talk back.

I also believe that when people pass on, they leave all their human falicies behind and are enlightened beyond our imagination. They don't get mad at me if I do something dumb, but they do have a heavy heart because of it sometimes. An example would be, my mother's mother. She had so many flaws, I'm sorry. But I can talk about them and not offend her in my eyes, because she no longer has ego or shame. She's past that now. She understands the mistakes she made during her 'earthly' life.

(No I don't talk out loud to my Grandfather, it's in my head, like I said. I'm not that crazy. Well, oK, maybe I am, blah! )

[RZZZA]

"Rather, I respect them to the Nth degree. I do believe in One God. It's so very complicated I can barely grasp it myself, really.

To further freak you out, I talk to them in my head all the time. And the scarey thing is --they talk back."

You talk to spirits in your head...? Like I said...nuerological disorder...

Do you see why I have such little regard for religion now? One mans Jesus is another man's Satan...But y'know, you could be absolutely correct. You could be 100 times more spiritually in tune than me, and you just MAY be able to contact souls in the afterlife and chat with them about Gas prices or whatever....who am I to say you're crazy? I admire people who aren't christians, or muslims, or jews but people who view religion as a very personal thing, different for everyone, totally unique to each person. Not that organized religion crap thats responsible for so many ills of society...Just one man, talking to his God(s)....its the way religion should be, imo.

[Francisco Montana]

Just one man, talking to his God(s)....its the way religion should be, imo.

Brother RZZZA, you just made it that simple.

Bravo.

[RZZZA]

Hooray! Do I get a Heaven pass now?


Lemme ask you something, since you claim to talk to your ancestors...I've always wondered this...my grandma passed a few years ago and she was a sweet, and very strong willed old lady. She lived through the holocaust and raised my mother single handed on almost no money. So...now that she's dead, can she see me when I'm on the can or when I'm jacking off? Cuz if I have to stop showering or jackin' it because all my dead family members are watching me, that would really suck.