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Thread: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

  1. #21
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    I've just noticed the screenshots in this post. Very good work and interesting article, especially the part about the Draco (im very interesting in it since i grew up with images of the Dacian Draco).

  2. #22
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    Hi P.M.!

    Could you help me on this? I'm looking for late 6th century banners (Maurikian era). What could we use on this period and is there any examples (pictures,patterns,etc..)?

    Thanks in advance...

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  3. #23
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    The question is somewhat difficult to answer. The Strategikon descibes small banners or flags which are just colour-coded. There is no word regarding holy persons or other displayed objects. On the other hand the Strategikon just describes the signal-flags of the ad-hoc created Tagmata on battle field. Insofar it has nothing to do with the real banners of single units/Numeri. We know from several primary sources that special houses were built, or even churches within the kastra were used to store the banners. In this case I don't think that the banners of regular enlisted untits (the katalogoi) were just small signal-flags or simple banners without picture. But if there was a sign on it then it was probably a very simple one, Mother God (Θεοτόκος) and other clearly visible signs.

    We may say that for old units the ancient shield symbols - as shown in the Notitia Dignitatum - probably have survived. "Probably" because we don't know if the, for example, Lanciarii had the same shield-image as known from the 4th and 5th century. But it is however likely that those symbols haven't changed and were still the same.
    For new deployed units we can take a closer look into books, mostly bibles, as the Pentateuch bible or other Syriac sources. I will later post some examples.

  4. #24
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pompeius Magnus View Post
    The question is somewhat difficult to answer. The Strategikon descibes small banners or flags which are just colour-coded. There is no word regarding holy persons or other displayed objects. On the other hand the Strategikon just describes the signal-flags of the ad-hoc created Tagmata on battle field. Insofar it has nothing to do with the real banners of single units/Numeri. We know from several primary sources that special houses were built, or even churches within the kastra were used to store the banners. In this case I don't think that the banners of regular enlisted untits (the katalogoi) were just small signal-flags or simple banners without picture. But if there was a sign on it then it was probably a very simple one, Mother God (Θεοτόκος) and other clearly visible signs.

    We may say that for old units the ancient shield symbols - as shown in the Notitia Dignitatum - probably have survived. "Probably" because we don't know if the, for example, Lanciarii had the same shield-image as known from the 4th and 5th century. But it is however likely that those symbols haven't changed and were still the same.
    For new deployed units we can take a closer look into books, mostly bibles, as the Pentateuch bible or other Syriac sources. I will later post some examples.
    Thank you very much for your answer. I will wait.

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

  5. #25
    Pompeius Magnus's Avatar primus inter pares
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    So, I hope you can see the following plate:


    If somebody has problems to see the shown shields please tell me - then I will use another upload-provider.
    You see some shield symbols from the Pentateuch bible.
    The Ashburnham Pentateuch is dated between the late 6th or early 7th century - insofar perfectly matching the design of EoR.
    Now some people could claim that those symbols are somwhat stylistic () - but I may say that those symbols (or similars) are shown in several other manuscripts I have evaluated for one of my upcoming essays. I was also able to check some wall paintings from egyptian churches of the 7th and 8th century - and even here they show the same design (and even if egypt was under muslimic rule, which doesn't negate the fact that shield symbols were very likely styled like shown on the upper plate).

  6. #26
    Alkimachos's Avatar EoR Modeller
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    Default Re: [Historiae] ...about Flags, Banners, and Dragons (4th 5th and 6th century)

    Great!

    Thank you!

    East of Rome Co - Leader / Modeller of Asia ton Barbaron / Ex beta tester of Roma Surrectum

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