Usage of Armor in the late roman army

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

lol, that's true. I'm guessing Adrian is Adrian Goldsworthy

[wulfgar610]

Italeri has leather cuirass in its 1/72 late Romans!

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1736

Most aspects of ancient history are the subject of heated debate amongst scholars, and this is particularly true of the ‘late Roman’ army. Top of the list is to what extent the infantry wore armour. The arguments still rage and we do not intend adding to them, so we will just say that it is widely believed that many Roman legionaries wore armour by this period, although it seems likely that many did not. The sixth century Strategikon discusses the use of both armoured and unarmoured infantry, so both seem to have been common enough. Four of the poses in this set wear armour, three of which seem to be mail or scale, which are both correct. The fourth (the first figure in the second row) wears a muscle cuirass, presumably of metal or leather. Here is another controversy, namely how often if ever this item appeared outside the officer corps, so Italeri have trod a delicate line by including just one in the set, which seems wise. For the rest, they wear what would be described as a typical tunic, around knee length and with long sleeves. The decoration on such tunics seems remarkably standard at the time, and is depicted in many places as well as clearly shown on several surviving examples. Basically this was decorated borders, lozenges and round patches on the skirt, as shown on the box artwork, and Italeri have engraved these patterns on all the figures. However the designer has gone overboard with this and given every man a kind of yoke for which we could find absolutely no evidence. Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of some form of decoration, but it is incorrect and the box artist is much closer to the truth than the figures themselves.

Looks like late Romans are gaining popularity in the plastics.

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/....aspx?period=4

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

A nice image, I've always wanted some late Roman minis, but I'm getting a bunch of other importants stuff right now (A laptop, a wireless modem, and an X-box 360 250 gig hard drive and transfer cable.) So I can't afford them.

[Valentinian Victor]

Italeri has leather cuirass in its 1/72 late Romans!

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Review.aspx?id=1736




Looks like late Romans are gaining popularity in the plastics.

http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/....aspx?period=4

I hope to God that your not seriously using wargame figures as evidence that Late Romans wore leather armour!!!

[Valentinian Victor]

lol, that's true. I'm guessing Adrian is Adrian Goldsworthy

Your guess would be wrong.

[wulfgar610]

I hope to God that your not seriously using wargame figures as evidence that Late Romans wore leather armour!!!

Unless you think they used linen like what was often used in the early classical world. But late Rome was knee deep in dead cows from the Mithraic cult. They must have used the leather for something?

[First Citizen Gallienus]

I hope to God that your not seriously using wargame figures as evidence that Late Romans wore leather armour!!!

While I'm not totally endorsing such an idea, many manufacturers of military models and yes even some "wargame figures," do historical research on products in question, before actually making them. However, unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you that a lot of such manufacturers and brands more often than not play the "artistic freedoms" card. So yeah, while the figures wulfgar (no offense ) posted aren't exactly incredibly detailed or anything, I'm sure there's better examples out there that can be used for reference.

[juvenus]

I hope to God that your not seriously using wargame figures as evidence that Late Romans wore leather armour!!!

me too

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Agreed, games have a horible sense of historical accuraccy. Also, thinking of that would any of you play a late Roman RPG game - like Oblivion but with Romans and BArbarians and stuff? I know a few people in the industry that would like to see that.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Agreed, games have a horible sense of historical accuraccy. Also, thinking of that would any of you play a late Roman RPG game - like Oblivion but with Romans and BArbarians and stuff? I know a few people in the industry that would like to see that.

I've thought about that, but there isn't really any army on army battles in that game. ( I love Oblivion by the way) I was just discussing some ideas for a game, (sort of like what you're saying) with one of my old buddies. It would essentially be a third and/or first person action game but with rome total war and assassins creed and dynasty warrior game mechanics. You start as a legionary and work your way up the ranks, eventually gaining command of a century, a cohort, and whole legions and start conquering territories like in Rome Total War. Your legions would then start declaring you imperator etc. which would then open up for options for construction projects in cities you've recently conquered. So basically it'd be you controlling armies like in Rome Total War, but you could still fight and in turn inspire your troops to fight when you fight your own battles with Assassin's Creed fighting mechanics (perhaps not as exotic though...). Too bad no one would hear my ideas, and it sounds like a rather too ambitious project to be undertaking.

[wulfgar610]

While I'm not totally endorsing such an idea, many manufacturers of military models and yes even some "wargame figures," do historical research on products in question, before actually making them. However, unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you that a lot of such manufacturers and brands more often than not play the "artistic freedoms" card. So yeah, while the figures wulfgar (no offense ) posted aren't exactly incredibly detailed or anything, I'm sure there's better examples out there that can be used for reference.

The problem with these people is that since they like the armor on Trajan's monuments, that's verbatim. However when the muscle cuirass is shown on monuments of Constantine and Galerius, that's fiction? All Italeri has done is reproduce what was illustrated at the time.

The reconstructions of knee length maile so beloved of the metal fetish belong purely to cavalry that had less of a problem with the 20kg or more. When Roman infantry wore maile or a metal equivalent, we only see short 12kg shirt protecting the vitals. We see this same patten of infantry armor right throughout the Empire period into the "dark ages".

However the most ridicilous concept is the common soldier wore a solid metal breastplate when they were primarily swordsmen and would have stuck with the more flexible and lighter segmenta.

[juvenus]

Also, thinking of that would any of you play a late Roman RPG game - like Oblivion but with Romans and BArbarians and stuff? I know a few people in the industry that would like to see that.

shortly-yezzz!

I've thought about that, but there isn't really any army on army battles in that game. ( I love Oblivion by the way) I was just discussing some ideas for a game, (sort of like what you're saying) with one of my old buddies. It would essentially be a third and/or first person action game but with rome total war and assassins creed and dynasty warrior game mechanics. You start as a legionary and work your way up the ranks, eventually gaining command of a century, a cohort, and whole legions and start conquering territories like in Rome Total War. Your legions would then start declaring you imperator etc. which would then open up for options for construction projects in cities you've recently conquered. So basically it'd be you controlling armies like in Rome Total War, but you could still fight and in turn inspire your troops to fight when you fight your own battles with Assassin's Creed fighting mechanics (perhaps not as exotic though...). Too bad no one would hear my ideas, and it sounds like a rather too ambitious project to be undertaking.

this sounds very, very good. i used to play both Elders Scroll and Gothic games and i know how they work-i'm not a true fan of those games for i don't like the use of magic, non-existing creatures and other unrealistic stuff. i also played AC-but i don't really like their arcade system of moving, u know, that crazy climbing and jumping.
however, i'd certainly try a game that would be a combo of ES+AC set in the Roman era. hypothetically, it would be a nice drift from my gaming routine PES, shooters, TW games

[Valentinian Victor]

I'm one of the minority who does believe the artistic works, monuments etc and agree that muscle cuirasses were worn by both infantry and at least by cavalry officers. What they were made of is more of an issue as Late Roman coloured artwork shows them either as light blue in colour or light brown, i nterepreted as Iron or Roman Bronze.

Wargame figures can be wildly inaccurate in their depictions of the troops they are meant to depict. There are still manufacturers out there churning out Late Roman clibanarii wargame figures based on the illustration in Phil Barkers book, of a heavily armoured rider on a half-armoured horse, despite Phil having for at least the last twenty years admitting he got that wrong and that clibanarii were heavily armour riders on fully armoured horses, the same as Sasanid Cataphracts.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Merobaudes mentions the use of generals wearing Steel Musculata

[Pompeius Magnus]

I'm one of the minority who does believe the artistic works, monuments etc

me too. after analysing dozens of works of art, plates, ditpychs, wodden statues, the famous silver dishes, grave stones etc of the sixth century (and beyond) we included in AoD a bundle of "experimental" weapons, armours and helmets. That includes the semi-spatha as well as an attic-like helmet - which is for example shown on a Bust of an unknown Magister Militum of the Sixth century as well as on some egyptian works of art, showing the Quinta Macedonia.
There are certain indications that this armament was actually in use.

[Valentinian Victor]

Merobaudes mentions the use of generals wearing Steel Musculata

If you can provide a quote that we can research and it proves to be correct then that would be the 'Holy Grail' that has been searched for all these years. I have been told by historians and scholars alike that there are no references at all to musculata during the Late Empire period.

[wulfgar610]

me too. after analysing dozens of works of art, plates, ditpychs, wodden statues, the famous silver dishes, grave stones etc of the sixth century (and beyond) we included in AoD a bundle of "experimental" weapons, armours and helmets. That includes the semi-spatha as well as an attic-like helmet - which is for example shown on a Bust of an unknown Magister Militum of the Sixth century as well as on some egyptian works of art, showing the Quinta Macedonia.
There are certain indications that this armament was actually in use.

You mean a shield emblazon that carries 8 petals can be positively identified as Macedonia V which in the ND is given a shield with 12 petals? What do you do about all those reliefs showing other shield pattens that can't be identified in the ND?

[juvenus]

...a Bust of an unknown Magister Militum of the Sixth century...

what a syntax great, i like it!

@VV and Flavius: musculata is, i suppose, a muscled cuirass?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

If you can provide a quote that we can research and it proves to be correct then that would be the 'Holy Grail' that has been searched for all these years. I have been told by historians and scholars alike that there are no references at all to musculata during the Late Empire period.

He says steel breastplate and it might be symbolic but I'll have to check.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

me too. after analysing dozens of works of art, plates, ditpychs, wodden statues, the famous silver dishes, grave stones etc of the sixth century (and beyond) we included in AoD a bundle of "experimental" weapons, armours and helmets. That includes the semi-spatha as well as an attic-like helmet - which is for example shown on a Bust of an unknown Magister Militum of the Sixth century as well as on some egyptian works of art, showing the Quinta Macedonia.
There are certain indications that this armament was actually in use.

I belive that too, but there are certain limitations: for example the Attic Helmet could be real, it would be extremly fancy for someone of extremly high rank and it would make them look powerful.