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Thread: Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

  1. #1

    Default Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    The goal here is to gather all possible coat of arms, crests and symbols. Also, symbols from graves, monuments, monasteries, frescoes and flags that can reveal great deal of decorations which could be very well used. We need decorations for small noble flags, shields, surcoats.....

    Modern national symbols are not appropriate.For example, modern Serbian coat of arms, Croatian 'chessboard' or Bosnian islamic star and crescent!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Nenadovcanin View Post
    The goal here is to gather all possible coat of arms, crests and symbols. Also, symbols from graves, monuments, monasteries, frescoes and flags that can reveal great deal of decorations which could be very well used. We need decorations for small noble flags, shields, surcoats.....

    Modern national symbols are not appropriate.For example, modern Serbian coat of arms, Croatian 'chessboard' or Bosnian islamic star and crescent!
    Interesting topic. I am working on a final essay for this year and than I can celebrate holliday! So I have no time now to search. But one small correction if you will allow me to...

    The Islamic star and cresent is not really a national simbol of the Bosnian muslims. We muslims from Bosnia (90% of us) consider the the coa of the bosnian kings (as in my subscription picture) as our only national simbol. A little bit strange it is... yes. But it is true. It is strange that let's say at grafes of bosnian muslim soldiers the "golden fleur de lille" was placed as a standard during the war while this simbol is actually pure christain. But we accepted it as our national simbol no matter if it is christian.

    I never saw a bosnian waving with an islamic flag. There are such bosnians off course but they are more the non seculat bosnians from the province or eastern Bosnia. For me personally at the first place comes my country and relligion is something which is very intime and personal. Off course I am muslim too. But if you ask me what I am first, bosnian or muslim; then I have to think very good. The place for an Islamic flag is at a mosque and its place is not there in the hands of a "bosnian supporter of the national team" or patriot etc.

    But may be off topic again...

    just wanted to say this. Good topic! (only it exists already I think)
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; June 30, 2010 at 04:39 PM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  3. #3
    Matthĉus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Nenadovcanin View Post
    Modern national symbols are not appropriate.For example, modern Serbian coat of arms, Croatian 'chessboard' or Bosnian islamic star and crescent!
    define modern, Croatian 'chessboard' can be dated to 1490's (and even before)
    here is an excellent page about this:
    http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/coat1.html

    first known example that is actually based on some real evidence (contrary to opinion that chessboard is first introduced in 11th century which is not based on facts)of something that looks like a chessboard is on the coins of Nikola Iločki/Újlaki Miklós in 1470's.
    he was a ban of "whole Slavonia" and "King of Bosnia" (at least by title- he did not actually rule Bosnia).


    thing is that we don't actually know what colors were on that coats of arms were or what it really meant. so this is more as curiosity.
    http://hbl.lzmk.hr/clanak.aspx?id=99

    BUT from 1490's we have a "proper chessboard" on numerous examples

    Croatian coat of arms in The Senj Cathedral, 1491,
    which belonged to the family of Perovich in Lika, mentioned in the accompanying Latin text


    Croatian coat of arms, not later than 1494,
    and probably much older (a remain of unknown church),
    Church of St. Lucija, Jurandvor near Baska, island of Krk



    Croatian coats of arms can be seen on the ceiling of the Stadtrichter Zeller Haus (Herzog Friedrichstr. 35)
    of the city magistrate (Stadtrichter) in Innsbruck, Austria, dating from 1495/96.


    Sigillum regni (royal seal) with Croatian coat of arms, Cetingrad 1527

    as you can see number of fields varied from time to time. also first field could be either red or white.


    and so on... there are a lot more examples from late 15, and 16th century, but this is enough (for more go here: http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/coat1.html)
    i think i proved my point
    Last edited by Matthĉus; July 01, 2010 at 02:24 AM.

  4. #4
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    define modern, Croatian 'chessboard' can be dated to 1490's (and even before)
    here is an excellent page about this:
    http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/coat1.html

    first known example that is actually based on some real evidence (contrary to opinion that chessboard is first introduced in 11th century which is not based on facts)of something that looks like a chessboard is on the coins of Nikola Iločki/Újlaki Miklós in 1470's.
    he was a ban of "whole Slavonia" and "King of Bosnia" (at least by title- he did not actually rule Bosnia).


    you forget one thing...Nikola Iločki was also a duke of Transylvania...
    COMPANY OF HEROES - BALKANS IN FLAMES

    Mi? Satrli smo grobu vrata,
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    The entrance to the old town of Jajce with one of the bosnian royal simbols above the entrance. This is how this simbol looked like before renovation:


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Beautiful city of Jajce.

    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  6. #6

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Here are artifacts on which the bosnian coat of arms are vsible. First the big coin of Tvrko I. This is the first known stamp of the first bosnian king. It is from the time when Tvrtko I Kotromanic became king of Bosnia and he after that also claimed, with succes, a part of serbia and cowned himself as the king of Serbia. Later he also claimed Dalmatia and croatia and he declared himself as king of Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and Dalmatia (in short).



    As we see at this stamp of Tvrtko I; at the left side of Tvrtko the weapon of the bosnian kingdom and at his right side the weapon of the Serbian Nemanjic dinasty. So this is from the time that Tvrtko claimed also serbian land.

    Then the son of Tvrtko; Tvrtko II had also this Bosnian weapon. We can find this weapon in the weapon book of Fojnica with under this weapon the name/pseudoname of Tvrtko II: Tvrtkovic:



    Then also king Dabisa continued to use this same weapon as the weapon of Bosnia. Here we can see the big stamp of king Dabisa with in his hand a shield with on the shield the bosnian weapon:



    So this shield just became the weapon of whole the kingdom. Mo matter if parts of this kingdom were "serbian" or "croatian" lands.

    Also other kings like Tomasevic, Ostoja, Ostojic etc. used this simbol on the coins. Like those:



    But also just only the lillies and the bosnian crown were visible at some coins:



    Or those coins of the last Bosnian king:



    Please pay attention to the perfectly simetrical cross at this coin. The same type of cross which we can find at the Coins of the Bosnian ruler Kulin of 200 years earlier. I think you choose the right simbol for the bosnian church!



    It seems that the bosnian kings copied a little bit the "coin tradition" of the French royal family sometimes, or is it just a big coinsidence? I don't think so:

    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  7. #7
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Croatian Coat of Arms:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Slavonia, 13th and 14th C:



    Dalmatia, 1387.-1458. :


    Dalmatia, from 1458. :



    Croatia, 15th C:


    Hungarian double-cross was also used by Croats:



    Croatian noble families:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Šubić:



    Frankopan:


    Šubić-Zrinski:



    Nelipić:


    Hrvatinić:





    Zapolja:


    Horvat:


    Gorjanski:


    Lapčan:


    Others:





    Croatian knight hospitallers (Priarity of Aurania) :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    as you can see this CoA have great similarity with oldest croatian CoA:



    Croatian cities:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Senj, 14th C:



    Senj, 15th C:




    Šibenik, 15th C:




    Metković, 15th C:


    Ilok, 15th C:


    Dubrovnik, 15th C:


    Šibenik, 1486. :

    Last edited by matija191; July 24, 2010 at 08:15 AM.
    COMPANY OF HEROES - BALKANS IN FLAMES

    Mi? Satrli smo grobu vrata,
    Da,još nas ima - još Hrvata!


  8. #8

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Croatian knight hospitallers

  9. #9
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Vlad Felix View Post
    Croatian knight hospitallers
    Priarity of Vrana (ili Vranski priorat) was established in year 1313. when the templars were "forbiden" in Croatia.Most of the knights, serjeants,priests and others were ethnic Croats, except few priars who were Italians,French (as you probably know priars were selected by Grand Master of the Order, so there is the reason why some of the priars were non-Croats).Auranian knights soon become powerfull, and they started they path to they political power in Croatian kingdom.They were one of the main rebels against king Sigismund of Louxemburg, and in 15th century the banderium of Auranian priar become one the backbone croatian army (alongside eight banderiums of other croatian bishops and bans).But after the death of Ivan Talovac (1445.) the title auranian priar become only political title, because many noblemens were competing for that title.....anyway (da skratim priču) priarity ceased to exist in the year of 1972 I think.
    COMPANY OF HEROES - BALKANS IN FLAMES

    Mi? Satrli smo grobu vrata,
    Da,još nas ima - još Hrvata!


  10. #10

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by matija191 View Post
    Priarity of Vrana (ili Vranski priorat) was established in year 1313. when the templars were "forbiden" in Croatia.Most of the knights, serjeants,priests and others were ethnic Croats, except few priars who were Italians,French (as you probably know priars were selected by Grand Master of the Order, so there is the reason why some of the priars were non-Croats).Auranian knights soon become powerfull, and they started they path to they political power in Croatian kingdom.They were one of the main rebels against king Sigismund of Louxemburg, and in 15th century the banderium of Auranian priar become one the backbone croatian army (alongside eight banderiums of other croatian bishops and bans).But after the death of Ivan Talovac (1445.) the title auranian priar become only political title, because many noblemens were competing for that title.....anyway (da skratim priču) priarity ceased to exist in the year of 1972 I think.
    stvarno nisam znao...hvala za info....

  11. #11
    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Here are some macedonian coats and other simbols...

    Macedonian flags from Miak region:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Coat of Alexander Macedonian III from Holy 9
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    Especially famous and important are
    the Coat of Arms of Alexander the Greatthe
    Macedonian, which are also found
    outside of the rolls of arms, painted,
    sculptured and embroided across Europe.
    The most frequent motif is the lion.
    Arms of Macedonia can also be found
    in the Illyrian armorials, bearing their
    name from the idea of a unified Slavonic
    state of Illyria.
    New research shows that those Roll
    of Arms were not merely filled with
    fabricated coat of arms and empty
    wishes.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Other coats from European books
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    From Vitzovič and Zhaferovich
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 01:11 PM.

  12. #12
    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Please delete this post
    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 12:54 PM.

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    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Macedonian arms appear for the first time in the “Illyrian Rolls of Arms” which came into being at the end of the XVIth century. The ”Illyric Rolls of Arms” is a book with collections of arms. These collections represent the main source of Balkan Heraldry.
    The appearance of a Macedonian Arms is connected with Petar Ohmucevic from the Republic of Dubrovnik, Don Pedro was a Rich salior that offered his services to Spain. In 1588, he became the commander-in-chief of a Spanish squadron of 12 large ships. Finally, he attained the rank of an admiral. Don Pedro Ohmucevic' family was not recognized as members of the nobility. Although an Admiral, he could not become a member of the most exclusive ranks of the nobility the Kalatrave, Alcantare, and St. Jacob of Compostelle. Petar Ohmucevic wanted to prove to that he himself was of noble origin. He tried hard to prove his noble origin,
    Due to lack of such proof, he began to use various falsifications; and from the year 1580 on he began to work up fictitious genealogies and heraldies, trying to prove that he was a descendant from Hrelja Ohmucevic who in 1349 was given title of Ban, “Duca du Kastoria” fromTzar Dusan ,
    Petar Ohmucevic began to collect and to create arms for his ancestors and relatives and with them, as was the custom at the time, he “proved” his nobility, Thus began The Illyric Heraldics. He put the invented and the collected arms together in a volume and announced that had been compiled as early as 1340 and had been found among the Holy books of St. Athos, in Macedonia.
    So the first Illyric Rolls of arms was compiled between 1584 to 1594 to meet the needs of Admiral Petar Ohmucevic of the Republic of Dubrovnik. The arms was worked up using as a model of the then existing Rols of arms in Europe.
    This Roll of Arms, the prototype of all the others, is lost, or remains undiscovered in some library or archive of Italy or Spain. The oldest preserved Roll of Arms is the so called the ğKorenik — NeorikĞ from the year of 1595, which is being kept at the University library of Zagreb under the catalogue number — P. 4084.
    At first there were eleven domestic arms in the roll of arms of Korenic — Neoric, i.e. “Emblems of the Countries and the Holy Tribes,” and then 140 family arms of various dukes, district chiefs, princes, knights, lords and others. Among the domestic arms there is the one of Macedonia on page VI. Under the arms one can read the name of “Macedonia” and over it, “Tsimeri of the Macedonian Country” i.e. “The Arms of the Land of Macedonia. “ The emblem of the arms is a yellow, erect lion on a red field. On the head of the lion is a small crown. (Gules a Lion Rampant Or crowned Or) Above the shield there is a big royal crown.
    In this Roll of arms, the Macedonian arms are met twice, that is, in the “General South Slavic Arms” of the Union the great Czar Dusan took the title of “Imperator Illyrican” (Emperor of Illyria) when he ruled over the nine great provinces of Macedonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the Sea-side territories, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Raska with 140 vassals whose arms were included in the Roll of Arms.
    The general arms were formed from the different domestic arms and the emblems of the separate arms were placed on, a general shield. On that general shied the arms of Macedonia, Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and others were placed.
    Macedonian Arms are still found in many heraldic sources which are kept in archives and libraries abroad. We are going to mention only some of these as follows: In the Rolls of Arms of Palmic from- the end of the XVIth century; kept in the archives of the Yugoslav Academy of Sciences; Mavro Orbini’s book — “Il regne de gli Slavi” from the year of 1601; In Althan’s Rolls of Arms, from the year 1614, kept at the University Library in Bologna; In the Roll of Arms from the year 1620, kept at the Museum of Applied Arts in Belgrade; in Marko Skoroevic’s Rolls of Arms, from the year of 1636, -in Vienna; in Foynic’s Rolls of Arms from the Year of 1675; in the works of “Charles du Fresne sieur du Cagne,” from year of 1680; in Olovo’s Roll of Arms — from the year of 1689 in Bologna; in Berlin’s Roll of Arms from the end of XVIIth century; in the Stematography of Pavle Riter Vitezovic, from the year of 1701; in the Roll of arms of “Codex Kevesic” from the year of 1740; in Zefarovic’s Stematography from the year of 1741;on the seals and arms of the Patriarchate of the Metropolis in Karlovac, from the year of 1741, in Ivo Saraka’s Rolls of Arms from the year of 1746; in Ljudevit Gaj’s bequest from the year of 1842; in the Rila Mo*nastery from the year of 1844, in some copies of Pajsiev’s history from the middle of the XIXth century; on the Heraldic Table of Milan Simic from the year of 1851; on the Revolutionary Flag (emblem) of the Razlovec’s Rebellion; on the Revolutionary flags (emblems of the Illinden’s Uprising,1903 etc.)
    Taken from the summary in English
    of the book "Coats of Arms of Macedonia" By Aleksandar Matkovski published in Skopje 1990. The integral text of the English summary could be obatained here

    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 01:14 PM.

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    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Palenič armorial 1600
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    Coronelis 1700
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    Coats of Arms of Macedonia 1595 by Korenič - Neorič
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    Altan Armory, 1614 Bolgnia
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    from Belgrad grbovnik 1620
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    Berlin library 1694
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    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 01:27 PM.

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    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    The Sun another popular Macedonian simbol which should represent the freedom...Macedonian symbol of eternity, found in all of Macedonia throwgought the ages, part of Alexander shield insignia
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    Macedonian Hunza symbols, Pakistan
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    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 01:31 PM.

  16. #16
    Makedonij's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    On August 2, 338 BC (NOTICE THAT ILINDEN WAS ALSO ON SAME DATE IN 1903 and in 1945), the Macedonians defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in central Greece and conquered their country. On the battlefiled they erected an impressive sculpture of a proud-standing lion. The same lion sculpture is also found in the Macedonian city of Amphipolis.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    In the course of the Middle Ages and in later periods the name of Macedonia can be found both in heraldry and itinerary literature. Macedonia is mentioned for the first time in the 1595 Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, where the coat of arms of Macedonia is included among those of eleven other countries.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Coat of roman ceaser and macedonian king
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    Alexander the great coat of arms, midevil interpretation
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    Last edited by Makedonij; August 01, 2010 at 01:37 PM.

  17. #17
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    nice pictures, but please put them in spoilers
    COMPANY OF HEROES - BALKANS IN FLAMES

    Mi? Satrli smo grobu vrata,
    Da,još nas ima - još Hrvata!


  18. #18
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    @Makedonij could you elaborate on connection of Alexander the Great and Slavic nation of Macedonians?
    beyond name y'know...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Aleksander the Great? No way...

  20. #20
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: Medieval Balkan coat-of-arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    @Makedonij could you elaborate on connection of Alexander the Great and Slavic nation of Macedonians?
    beyond name y'know...
    all macedonians do it, no matter that the old macedonias were actually greek people.
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
    check out Tsardoms: Total War!
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