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Thread: Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

  1. #361

    Default Re: Public Research: Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    well that certainly isnt Bosnian CoA, but that sentence that Bosnia is being ruled by Frangepani is interesting, for that CoA is CoA of Frangepani noble family, which is Croatian noble family, they were among highest nobility of Croatia in Hungary, howeover they have never ruled Bosnia
    The only Croatian nobles which ruled Bosnia (after the fall of the Croatian state in the 11th century) are sthe Subici. There were some wars between Bosnians and teh Croatian Subic family but we don't know the outcome of those wars. The sources are very think concerning those relations between the Kotromanic and the Subic. All we know is that the Subici called themelves "rulers of all of Bosnia" in the time of Stijepan Kotroman. But historians think that they only put that into their title and did not control really "all of Bosnia" but only the western part of it. After those wars and those territorial pretensions from the Subic family we know that Mladen I Subic was killed by the Bosnians. The sources mention "heretic Bosnians who killed Mladen I Subic." We know that Kotroman met Mladen before at the banks of the Drina river. This means that he had to come from the north and tried to penetrate into the "real land of Bosnia" or the "small land of Bosnia" (horion Bosona as the DAI calls it.) May be he conquerred really all of Bosnia in that time? We will never know for sure. To me that would be not logical because if he conquerred really the real hearth of Bosnia then how would Bosnia ever manage to regenerateitself; to kill Mladen I? We should not forget that only 15 years after the Subici call themleves "rulers of whole of Bosnia" the Bosnians re-conquerred all the northern provinces and also annexated the Serbian Hum and reached the sea at metkovic. And 10 years after that Stijepan Kotromanic II added to his title also Livno and Duvno and called himelf: "The ruler of all Bosnian lands from Sava to the Cetina and sea-side."

    We really don't know much. We know only that Kotroman choose one side of the Hungarian political spectrum and Mladen I Subic choose the opposition in Hungaria. But it seems that Bosnia was on the edge of existence during those Subic pretensions but managed to recover itself after this.

    Frankopans were not really a thread I think. Only Subic and that was it.
    Last edited by Bosnian_King; February 07, 2012 at 01:56 PM.
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  2. #362
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Public Research: Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    Paul Šubić ( Pavle in Croatian ) was really an interesting man, one of few most powerfull magnates in Hungarian history, he de facto ruled independently, and recognized Hungarian kings only nominaly

    read more at wikipedia



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    this is a picture from 1300 showing Hungary in era when royal power was weak and land was divided among powerfull magnates, one of most powerful was Paul Šubić

  3. #363
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    Default Re: Public Research: Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    I can provide you with some heraldry, even though it might be taken.


    Coat of Arms of Moldavia


    Movilești family coat of arms


    Moldavian war flag


  4. #364

    Default Re: Public Research: Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    The only Croatian nobles which ruled Bosnia (after the fall of the Croatian state in the 11th century) are sthe Subici. There were some wars between Bosnians and teh Croatian Subic family but we don't know the outcome of those wars. The sources are very think concerning those relations between the Kotromanic and the Subic. All we know is that the Subici called themelves "rulers of all of Bosnia" in the time of Stijepan Kotroman. But historians think that they only put that into their title and did not control really "all of Bosnia" but only the western part of it. After those wars and those territorial pretensions from the Subic family we know that Mladen I Subic was killed by the Bosnians. The sources mention "heretic Bosnians who killed Mladen I Subic." We know that Kotroman met Mladen before at the banks of the Drina river. This means that he had to come from the north and tried to penetrate into the "real land of Bosnia" or the "small land of Bosnia" (horion Bosona as the DAI calls it.) May be he conquerred really all of Bosnia in that time? We will never know for sure. To me that would be not logical because if he conquerred really the real hearth of Bosnia then how would Bosnia ever manage to regenerateitself; to kill Mladen I? We should not forget that only 15 years after the Subici call themleves "rulers of whole of Bosnia" the Bosnians re-conquerred all the northern provinces and also annexated the Serbian Hum and reached the sea at metkovic. And 10 years after that Stijepan Kotromanic II added to his title also Livno and Duvno and called himelf: "The ruler of all Bosnian lands from Sava to the Cetina and sea-side."

    We really don't know much. We know only that Kotroman choose one side of the Hungarian political spectrum and Mladen I Subic choose the opposition in Hungaria. But it seems that Bosnia was on the edge of existence during those Subic pretensions but managed to recover itself after this.

    Frankopans were not really a thread I think. Only Subic and that was it.
    noup,ban kulin vas from slavonia just like ban borich(borić) and the last nominal king nikola ilochki(iločki)!!

  5. #365
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    Kotroman was from Slavonia as well.

  6. #366

    Default Re: Public Research - Medieval Balkan Coat of Arms

    Quote Originally Posted by Hrobatos View Post
    Kotroman was from Slavonia as well.
    hmm i coudnt find anything about his origins i think it is stl hevily argued,can u send me some link where did u read that + i forgat to mention mladen subic pavles son he ruled bosnia alsow and he brought kotromanics to the position of stuards of bosnia after his death bosnia became independent!

    there is a bosnian site with many coat of arms i find them cool especialy those from kopcic! and kuretic,drazojevic and many more http://www.camo.ch/grbovibhvlastele.htm

    by the way are those units in the bosnian previw all that the banate will have or will there be more and will there be mercaneries and where can i se the ungarian units?

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