[VI 2 Submod] The Last Kingdom (TLK)

[christof139]

Hi DV, Read your posts. Well, I might upgrade to 1.1 but I am going to play a bit with your 1.0 for awhile yet.

In 1.0 the Saxon Warship Units were 30 strong. I notice in all the RTW games that the better the class warship the more of them you get, & that seems odd to me. Seems that you should get more lesser warships in a unit (fleet) rather than more of the better (higher) class warships. Example of what I think would be more reasonable: 1) Best Warship, 5 ships in a unit (maybe 6), better fighting stats, should actually have more movement. 2) 2nd Best warship, 7 to 10 ships in a unit, slightly better stats & movement than in vanilla. 3) Smallest warship, 15 ships (boats) in a unit, using vanilla or slightly lesser fighting stats, & keeping vanilla movement or lessening it a wee bit. I don't know if the fighting & movement stats can be changed, & the cost would have to be somewhat realistically/evenly factored across all 3 ship types.

I used Hastings as an example of the effectiveness of hand missiles & to show their abundance of use, & it seems that since the Saxons of the earlier times were using the shield wall & hand missiles just as the Saxons did at Hastings I used Hastings as an example. Doesn't seem to be much difference between the times concerning tactics, weapons or armor use except that the great 2-handed axe was used more in later times.

Throwing things at other things - or people etc. - was/is fun anyway!! Especially when you get a hit, or a strike in baseball, or whatever. Organized mass snowball fights with volleys was a lot of fun when in grade school & even Jr. High School: up to 100 or so kids on a side sometimes, with some nuts putting rocks inside the snowballs, & that hurt. Hmmm? Maybe I was hit in the head too many times by various flying objects?

Since you won't tell me how to recruit Uthred's household troops up to strength I guess I'll have to play it a bit more to find out, if the 5 survivors manage to live. Thanx.

Yeah, that's a neat site, the one showing the fighting techniques & weapons etc. That single-edged heavy chopper is wild - & cheap $, & it's also red due to oxidation no doubt, but it would make a nice red ancillary sword for some Dane or Norse leader like Ivar the Boneless or whomever. I also found mention - somewhere - of a ~700-something AD Saxon sword made out of 8 rods of iron & steel, 2 more rods than the Bamburgh sword, & it was found in some burial site - maybe Sutton Hoo? - in England, I think it was England at least. Might be mentioned at one of the sites I posted, I can't remember.

Adios for now. Take care.

[Aradan]

FYI, the number of a ship unit indicates crew per ship, not number of ships.

[christof139]

FYI, the number of a ship unit indicates crew per ship, not number of ships.

Thanx, so each ship icon/unit is only one ship? That's odd, & a bit unrealistic if so.

[Aradan]

I'd say it's equally realistic with having units of 60 men.

[DaVinci]

I might upgrade to 1.1 but I am going to play a bit with your 1.0 for awhile yet.

Why?

Version 1.1 is a relevant improvement over v1.0, comes with significant changes, so 1.0 is clearly outdated.
Also the initial battle vs. Ubba is quite a challenge now, i needed 4 or 5 attempts before i found out how to win this battle incl. that Uhtred survived.

[christof139]

Why?

Version 1.1 is a relevant improvement over v1.0, comes with significant changes, so 1.0 is clearly outdated.
Also the initial battle vs. Ubba is quite a challenge now, i needed 4 or 5 attempts before i found out how to win this battle incl. that Uhtred survived.

Why? Because I will lose what I have done in the game, & need to know how to recruit Uthred's household troop, & it may be easier to do in 1.0 than 1.1, I don't know.

Is 1.1 able to overwrite 1.0 without a clean install?

[christof139]

I'd say it's equally realistic with having units of 60 men.

You miss the point. If 1 unit of ships in the game is = to only 1 ship with 30, 60, 7, 3, or 100 crew, then how does a mere 1 ship transport a whole stack of units as it is capable of doing in the game!??! One 3 crewed Saxon rowboat is capable of transporting an entire stack. Very unrealistic.

Seems there must be a way to explain just exactly what ship units represent in the game, & it can't be a single ship with a crew of 3 to 60 or whatever. Are the stats that screwy, or is it just a screwy part of the vanilla pudding straight from the producers of RTW?

[KindredRavens]

my point is tangential to christof139, though not entirely agreeing with him, it does seem ridiculous that warriors aboard vessel would see the crews of both ships slug it out without their aide... I've seen one average ship with a full stack lose to one awesome ship with no stack... if it was merely a crew vs crew battle that fields no logic... especially in this mod's time period when "ramming" ships weren't produced.

[Aradan]

The stats are based on what produces more believable results based on the underlying, hardcoded engine. RTW makes ships stronger when that value (that I call crew and you thought was number of ships) is bigger; and the idea that this is crew numbers seems to agree with how ships were coded in vanilla RTW. I agree it might not be realistic to have 1 ship be able to carry an entire army or that armies on-board do not boost the strength of the fleet, but that's how RTW works.

[DaVinci]

The stats are based on what produces more believable results based on the underlying, hardcoded engine. RTW makes ships stronger when that value (that I call crew and you thought was number of ships) is bigger; and the idea that this is crew numbers seems to agree with how ships were coded in vanilla RTW. I agree it might not be realistic to have 1 ship be able to carry an entire army or that armies on-board do not boost the strength of the fleet, but that's how RTW works.

So it is ...

christof139, the RTW engine comes with quite a lot odd and unrealistic items.
The initial comment of "330 ships" confused me short, until i looked into the edu at the ship codes (once more after over 5 years of RTW edu coding i easily forget certain details), it was always the case, 1 ship unit is 1 ship, just not a fleet.

And yes, the ship-transport-abilities of landunits is a laughable item in the RTW engine (and in all other TW engines as well !).
We can only change landunits to a non-seafaring ability, what makes for example sense for horse-units.

Is 1.1 able to overwrite 1.0 without a clean install?

Yes, v1.1 includes all 1.0 files and overwrites everything. And you have to start the campaign anew.



Edit: Version 1.1 upload now worked also to TWC's server.

[christof139]

Hello you all, Yeah, the ships, the naval warfare aspect of RTW is simply abstracted period. Makes things hard to imagine, hard to concieve & interpret, etc. So, we are dealing with RTW Vanilla Pudding Super Ships. Hmmmm, maybe we can say say that the number is not the ship's crew but the actual number of ships & simply lower this number as I earlier thought to do, therby number of soldiers = number of ships, & that makes sense. Certainly the Saxon Longboat type class represents a ship of 30 to 50-feet or so, & it would have much more than a crew or soldier number of 7 as it has in vanilla. Know what I mean? It's all abstract, so to me the number will = the number of ships in the unit & not the number of crew on a particular ship type unit. So, by adjusting the numbers a bit a player would have a somewhat more realistic view/image/understanding of the naval forces/number of ships at his/her disposal. Therefore, I will interpret this number to be the number of ships in a unit rather than number of crew on a ship, & to me that is a more reasonable explanation since one wee little rowboat cannot transport a hoard of troopies, & neither can 3 or 7 ships (numbers in the smallest rowboat & mid level longboat types). Just have to adjust the attack & defence values & numbers of ships in a unit (smaller ships have more ships in a unit than larger ships, & larger ships have better attack & defence values & speed) to develope something reasonable for a player's mind to comprehend. IOTW again, the Soldier Value = the Number of Ships, & the attack & defence values = the size & quality of the crew. Thus, this is the way I can interpret the vanilla to make it consumable for me own wee little brain & tastes. Vanila Yogurt is also tastey BTW, & Bananna-Strawberry is also yummy, & no doubt the Norse had a yogurt type food & shops, & the Danes definitely had Danish Pastry Shops, neither of which type of establishments will be destoyed when I sack PDS London.

DV, I found the secret to recruiting Uthred's household, but London always quickly revolts due to all the Pagan Danish Squatters living in it, so the next time I am ejected from London by these irrate PDS types & subsequently regroup to retake London, & when it is retaken I will do a very un-Christian thing & exterminate the poor, misguided PDS types, thereby ridding London of their nuisance & pestiferous hostility & consequent rebellious attitudes & their own obnoxious, self-serving, greedy, lousy pagan selves.

OK, thanx for info. about 1.1 overwriting capability & save-game incompatability.

[christof139]

So it is ... And yes, the ship-transport-abilities of landunits is a laughable item in the RTW engine (and in all other TW engines as well !).
We can only change landunits to a non-seafaring ability, what makes for example sense for horse-units.
...

Hi DV etc., BTW, the Vikings did indeed transport horses aboard ships. Large numbers of horses were transported for short distances from Danelaw into other parts of England & from Viking stronholds in France. I have found a good number of examples of this in perhaps the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle & modern works that referenxe primary sources. It doesn't seem many horses were transported from Norway or Denmark though, since Norse horses were generally smaller than other European horses, so the Vikings would capture horses on raids & take them with them by sea or land, many more would of course be taken by land rather than sea. Another example of thousands of horses being transported in a large Viking type longship & knarrs/trade ship fleet is of course the Norman Invasion of England. Too bad the game engine won't alow the limitation of the number of cavalry type units transported by a fleet/ship & that this type of transport capability is therefore completely removed in the mod. Perhaps a script that allowed the Vikings to recruit a mounted infnatry/cavalry unit when they landed could simulate the limited horse carrying capacity of Viking raiding fleets & armies. Say if 9 or less Viking infantry units landed, then one spear, leidanger (sp?), Vikingr, or other infantry type unit excluding bodygaurds & archers & slingers could be allowed to convert to a cav./mounted infantry unit, & if the seaborne army has 10 units or above then 2 units could be so converted, or allowed to be purchased upon landfall. Another way to do this is to give the Vikings immediate access to the ability to build a stable as soon as they capture a town, since the capture of horses was one of the first things the Vikings usually did when they landed. However, the cav. type used by the Vikings would be a light scout-type unit only. I haven't found any reference to the Saxons, Irish, Scots, Or Welsh doing this.

Expanding strat map to include the west coast of France & southern Frisia (have to look & see if this part of Frisia is on the strat map to begin with). The Frisians were also raiding France, England, & perhaps occassionally Denmark & northern Saxon lands in Germany. It seems good numbers of them may have allied with invading Danish fleets & armies to raid & invade England, & some seem to have settled in Saxon lands & to have become assimilated into the English culture & nation. Having Frisia as a strong rebel nation would be neat (if Frisia or part of it is already on the strat map, if not, forget it, but then you could add limitied Frisian troop recruitmet options to the northern most French province & to East Anglia, Kent, Northumbria, Sussex, Essex, & Wessex).

Not only all that, but the Frisians also invented fish sticks, as is evidenced by the modern corporation Van de Kamp's selling as one of their products Van de Kamp's Fishsticks!! Of course Ursula's & Mrs. Pauls corps. may also be of Frisian and/or Nederlander origin. An army (or navy etc.) marches/swims on its stomach you know.

BTW, Ursula Andress, the great actress, was born in Ostermundigen, Bern, Switzerland & is German-Swiss, but that is close enough to be visually, genetically, & sexually considered as a Friisan & Nederland & Saxon female type, & she would make a good Frisian Leader Warrior Wench or Witch Leader type, or whatever, such as a Seeress ancillary etc. AND, Raquel Welch with her reddish hair would do the same for the Irish of course. I've dated both of these women of course when we were all much younger. Flash Gordon introduced them to me in space on the planet Mongo, but Emperor Ming became angry so they were short-lived affairs. Come to think of it, it may have been in a casino in Monte Carlo rather than the planet Mongo, my memory is slipping.

PS: Frisian units: 1) Mercenary Rabble in light to medium brown tunics for a simple conversion. 2) Welsh Peasants with javelins as is for javilineers. 3) Viking or Saxon Peasants as Peasants. 4) Standard Spearman unit. 5) Vikingr in different colors for close order melee infantry with slighltly increased stats. 6) Generic archers using Mercenary Archers with lighter colored tunic/animal skin. 7) Generic slingers, maybe yes, maybe no. 8) Infantry Bodyguards using Saxon Thegns for a base, or another mailed hand-axe & sword unit. 9) Horse units would be light scout cav. with 2 javelins only & spear, sword, axe, & shield, but be severely limited (somehow) in number of units. That's it IMHO.

[christof139]

I'd say it's equally realistic with having units of 60 men.

Not really, since 60 men would be the ~size of a crew of a 15 to 24 or so oared ship/boat, & crews would fight together on land in a company/platoon type unit or subunit. A raid made by a minor jarl with 5 ships would give 5 crew land units or subunits, a 100 ship raid led by 4 jarls would have larger consolidated units but with subunits consisting of a ship's crew.

[DaVinci]

Not really, since 60 men would be the ~size of a crew of a 15 to 24 or so oared ship/boat, & crews would fight together on land in a company/platoon type unit or subunit. A raid made by a minor jarl with 5 ships would give 5 crew land units or subunits, a 100 ship raid led by 4 jarls would have larger consolidated units but with subunits consisting of a ship's crew.

Completely agreed. I tried to make the viking main unit-numbers along this background, while i considered that a small group always would left to guard their precious boats.

Another example of thousands of horses being transported in a large Viking type longship & knarrs/trade ship fleet is of course the Norman Invasion of England.

Yes, while not the Normans of William managed that, but their cousins of Norman-Sicily who helped William in this invasion-project, especially in the sea-transport of horses.

Btw., i have also created a Norman Invasion submod (together with Athenogoras).

[Athenogoras]

Btw., i have also created a Norman Invasion submod (together with Athenogoras).

That is however not compatible with the latest version of NI. At least I think so(havent tried it)

[christof139]

Completely agreed. I tried to make the viking main unit-numbers along this background, while i considered that a small group always would left to guard their precious boats.


Yes, while not the Normans of William managed that, but their cousins of Norman-Sicily who helped William in this invasion-project, especially in the sea-transport of horses.

Btw., i have also created a Norman Invasion submod (together with Athenogoras).

Yeah, I wonder what the creators of vanilla RTW etc. were thinking of sometimes.

I don't believe the Normans of Sicily were soley responsible for the building etc. of William's fleet, since the Normandy Normans were not far removed from their sea-faring ancestors, & still had contact & trade with Scandanavia as well as the Frisians, Ango-Saxons, French, etc.

However, any ships capable of caring horses would have had to have been modified in several ways. I bet that merchant knarrs were used more so than longships, but that longships were also used but to a lesser degree than knarrs.

So, you all made another NI mod, sounds interesting!! The original NI mod I have installed, & am playing the Saxons, & have managed to beat large Norman/Allied armies with smaller armies composed of a good number of character bodyguard units, gold-silver Peasants, Fyrd, Mercs., & a very few Cav. The original may need some balancing at game-start.

[Keyser Soze]

The original NI mod I have installed, & am playing the Saxons, & have managed to beat large Norman/Allied armies with smaller armies composed of a good number of character bodyguard units, gold-silver Peasants, Fyrd, Mercs., & a very few Cav. The original may need some balancing at game-start.

I think NI is well balanced. did you play it on recomended settings?

[DaVinci]

...

I don't believe the Normans of Sicily were soley responsible for the building etc. of William's fleet, since the Normandy Normans were not far removed from their sea-faring ancestors, & still had contact & trade with Scandanavia as well as the Frisians, Ango-Saxons, French, etc.
...

What you believe is not the point
It's actually a fact: The Normans of the Normandy were the ancestors of Rollo's vikings, who were the last ones who invaded France at 911 AD - they got then the Normandy (first Rouen and suroundings, i believe; "Normandy" -> land of the Normans) as fief, in replacement to not make any anger anymore in west-frankish realms (but to defend it as vasalls of the french king). And they were "absorbed" quickly by the frankish culture, while still keeping the one or other viking traditions, but not anymore the viking seafaring/raiding. The Siculo-Normans though kept and developed their seafaring abilities still more (as a remaining isle-conquering people, and with the growing connection to greek/italian/muslim naval knowledge). It is recorded somewhere, that the Siculo-Normans were the ones who showed the how-to, and thus managed, crossing the channel, of William's large invasion army with heavy war-equipment and the many horses, even in such dangerous waters like the channel. It was really an amazing undertaking, never before (and never again in history, besides the trial of the Spanish Armada), such a large heavy army landed on the british isles, including that many horses.
As a side-note: The Siculo-Norman house were a family branch of the Normans of Normandy themselves, thus i said "their cousins".

[christof139]

What you believe is not the point
It's actually a fact: The Normans of the Normandy were the ancestors of Rollo's vikings, who were the last ones who invaded France at 911 AD - they got then the Normandy (first Rouen and suroundings, i believe; "Normandy" -> land of the Normans) as fief, in replacement to not make any anger anymore in west-frankish realms (but to defend it as vasalls of the french king). And they were "absorbed" quickly by the frankish culture, while still keeping the one or other viking traditions, but not anymore the viking seafaring/raiding. The Siculo-Normans though kept and developed their seafaring abilities still more (as a remaining isle-conquering people, and with the growing connection to greek/italian/muslim naval knowledge). It is recorded somewhere, that the Siculo-Normans were the ones who showed the how-to, and thus managed, crossing the channel, of William's large invasion army with heavy war-equipment and the many horses, even in such dangerous waters like the channel. It was really an amazing undertaking, never before (and never again in history, besides the trial of the Spanish Armada), such a large heavy army landed on the british isles, including that many horses.
As a side-note: The Siculo-Norman house were a family branch of the Normans of Normandy themselves, thus i said "their cousins".

Yes, I know the ancestory of the Normans both in France/Normandy & Sicily. Nothing new to me.

I don't believe the Sicilian Normans were soley responsible for building William's fleet since there were already skilled shiprights in Normandy & others may have come to Normandy from frisia, Denmark, Sicily, etc. to work on Willie's fleet. I also don't believe that Willie in Normandy & his vassals & allies & hierlings had not any knowledge of naval affairs etc. So, IOTW, I don't believe the Sicilian Normans were the sole nautical/naval 'experts' involved in Willie's naval planning & construction & actual seaborne invasion, & I have yet to see any info. that states the Sicilian Normans were fully responsible.

[christof139]

I think NI is well balanced. did you play it on recomended settings?

I think it needs some balancing etc., although it is extremely hard to determine the size of the forces actually involved due to the lack of primary sources concerning this. The gold/silver weapons & armored peasants are also rather unrealistic. I think MoN or someone put those in as a humorous joke more or less.