A question for the curator.

[Spiff]

My preferred solution to a problem in the constitution large enough to apparently warrant a thread on interpretation would be to amend the relevant section rather than relying on undocumented conventions like relying on archived rationales, or decisions from the curator on ambiguous text. As much as I love common law and all..

[Mímirswell]

Right but we have a case already pending. A decision has to be made upon that and at this time, that's the best method of doing so. A permanent solution should be put forward for future cases via a bill but that does nothing to resolve the current pending situation and delaying it to wait for a bill to pass (that has no guarantee of even passing) is to punish whichever individual wishes their proceeding to be made public.

[Augustus Lucifer]

The section does presume some intuitive interpretation. If the Mets and the Yankees play a game and I tell you the Mets lose, it's probably safe to assume the Yankees won. Similarly, while not as definitive, it seems safe to assume that if it's stated that an applicant is to be asked and very few if any curial protocols are 'take under advisement', that the full power to decide is devolved to the applicant or referred unless otherwise stated. Unfortunately with all implicit wording the exact contra stance can be taken, so the wording needs to be made more explicit to prevent that. This issue is a microcosm which exhibits the prolixity of the Constitution.

I should probably write an amendment to make it more precise, but I'll wait on that due to the matter of further transparency currently being discussed which would make substantial changes to the same section. Hell I may even just go ahead and propose that.

[Empress Meg]

Is there any qualification relevant to that part of the Constitution?



To be precise: is there anywhere in the Constitution that making a case public (in case that the referred member wishes so) depends upon the approval of the Curator?

I hope you could elucidate this point for me,
Thanks,
Garb.

Ug. I'll answer the only way I know how besides being cowardly and PC. At one particular time I thought that a case was made public no matter what, with some editing allowed should the curator deem it a necessity for keeping the peace and privacy of certain members. However, one case in particular caused me grievous stress about public accountability. It was not up until the last moment when I took the plunge and made it public with some serious editing. I don't like to have to edit or remove a person's words (call it the rebel in me heehee) but in that case it was absolutely necessary to ensure that the new opt-in transparency bill was followed in spirit without violating the deeply held beliefs I have.

I do not know if denying a case to public scrutiny in its entirety is allowed or prohibited by the TWCC. It doesn't say either way, does it? There's no " the curator may not deny a case to be made public" in there anywheres nor is there any place that allows for the curator's discretion in such a case either save for the preamble, which I take as the Captain's Cloak* in many situations. I prefer to have some say in whether it is best to keep a case locked away in private or be allowed into the public light, but there's seldom little wiggle room as it stands now.

Of course, full transparency would nullify this entirely.

Devoirs The Empress

*Article 36

[imb39]

Of course, full transparency would nullify this entirely.

[Lysimachus]

[Garbarsardar]

All is well then. It is clear for me that the Curator acted on the best interest of the site in a delicate matter. However this issue also highlighted a problem with our constitution which is something we should look into. I agree that full disclosure would avert such misunderstandings in the future.

[magpie]

I would second your opinion Garb, At least it would clear the muddied water,s our curator has to deal with!

[Empress Meg]

All is well then. It is clear for me that the Curator acted on the best interest of the site in a delicate matter. However this issue also highlighted a problem with our constitution which is something we should look into. I agree that full disclosure would avert such misunderstandings in the future.

Ah, so this was something that happened recently then, it wasn't just a hypothetical case. Would you mind telling me what incident sparked this? No names needed just curious. As I said, I'm not the best person to ask when it comes to reading the TWCC, AL, Justy, and tBP as best when it comes to the nuts and bolts.

Devoirs The Empress

[Garbarsardar]

Ah, so this was something that happened recently then, it wasn't just a hypothetical case. Would you mind telling me what incident sparked this? No names needed just curious. As I said, I'm not the best person to ask when it comes to reading the TWCC, AL, Justy, and tBP as best when it comes to the nuts and bolts.

Devoirs The Empress

There were concerns expressed about the handling of a disciplinary case. While Hex does not interfere in CdeC proceedings, the member felt that he exhausted all other avenues and addressed his concerns to us. We ruled out a number of concerns and investigated the ones that seemed open to interpretation.

[Empress Meg]

An appeal process?

Devoirs The Empress

[Garbarsardar]

An appeal process?

Devoirs The Empress

Sorry, you lost me here. Do you ask if it was an appeal process? If that is your question, I have to say that we do not have such mechanism in place when the "appeal" involves both CdeC and Curator. Hex is not an overseeing body for the Curia, so our involvement was "extraordinary" as the case at hand.

[Empress Meg]

Sorry, you lost me here. Do you ask if it was an appeal process? If that is your question, I have to say that we do not have such mechanism in place when the "appeal" involves both CdeC and Curator. Hex is not an overseeing body for the Curia, so our involvement was "extraordinary" as the case at hand.

Well that is what I'm asking. You said that this member had found roadblocks at all places, including the CdeC, so I was wondering if said member was asking for some type of appeal via Hex? Because as you said, I'd never heard of this before since the TWCC does imply that the CdeC is the beginning and the end when it comes to citizen's behavior once it's passed into the CdeC. I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, just trying to figure the situation without compromising this citizen's privacy.

Devoirs The Empress

[Garbarsardar]

Well that is what I'm asking. You said that this member had found roadblocks at all places, including the CdeC, so I was wondering if said member was asking for some type of appeal via Hex? Because as you said, I'd never heard of this before since the TWCC does imply that the CdeC is the beginning and the end when it comes to citizen's behavior once it's passed into the CdeC. I'm not suggesting that this is good or bad, just trying to figure the situation without compromising this citizen's privacy.

Devoirs The Empress

As I said, it was a first for all involved. If a citizen has no confidence in the CdeC, he can address the Curator. If a citizen has lost confidence in both CdeC and Curator there is no route for a direct appeal. This leaves two indirect appeal options: a) address the Hex as an overseeing body of the site (not of the Curia, but the implied argument here would be that what compromises the Curia, is potentially detrimental to the site) or b) proceed with a VonC; regardless of the success of a VonC against...(?), that action will inevitably lead to a re-examination of the case by the full body of citizens.

[Empress Meg]

Well, I would hope that the person in question would find the curator approachable enough to pose any queries that they may have regarding disciplinary issues or general curia matters. It is of course within anyone's right to appeal so to speak to a higher power then the CdeC or the curator, such as the curia or Hex, but much like the appeals process for a moderation infraction eventually the buck must stop somewheres. I'm curious to see, now that we've had this conversation, how CdeC cases are approached from now onwards.

Devoirs The Empress

[Karamazovmm]

I'm glad