save game compatible?
save game compatible?
Hello FP and friends.
Having complained recently about the not always so successful names of the Khwarezmians, Ichon suggested I compiled a new list and sent it to you.
I have overwritten the older list while leaving those names that sounded ok. All the new names I added are confirmed from the period 1050-1550 and from individuals who were born in the region -with 2-3 exceptions of names of foreign princesses married to Khwarezmian rulers. With female names, because they are hard to get by, I also included some names from medieval Persian romances and poetry.
I have removed most of the Seljuk and all Ottoman and Georgian names. In fact one name and surname was of a Turkish goalkeeper - who had come up with that list? Koprulu and Mihaloglu are Ottoman or Seljuk names not associated with Khwarezmia, so I have removed them although they are in the campaign script.
The new names are as they appear in Wikipedia. The spelling of some of the new names contains some accents, it may be best to remove them but I have left them in, in case you want them.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Many thanks Geoffrey, your contribution is most welcome - I'll put your nice list into the next release! (+rep)
I seem to have to change also the Greek names not just the Khwarezmian names in my SS6.3 names.txt. Perhaps whoever came up with these names could contact me for a revised list. Standard spellings for Byzantine names are in Patrologia Graeca, there should be no need to invent new ones for M2TW.
There are also some grammatical mistakes. The locative genitive “ek” is valid only before consonants. It is incorrect to place it before vowels. Eg the correct genitive would be ex Athenon, or ex Alexandreias. I have also not previously seen Greek names declined with Latin characters. In any case, Greeks never had feudal titles, so using bynames in the style of European nobility, or of Arab Emirs, is a bit out of place. Locative names when used rather as surnames as in many other languages, were changed into adjectives, so for example Athenaeus, Alexandreus or Alexandrinos respectively, etc. Therefore that whole list of bynames should go. But if it is kept for an alternative Byzantium with feudal titles, locatives should be at least grammatically correct.
As for the spelling, there was an initiative in the later part of the 20th C to invent a new way of phonemic transcription of modern Greek names and placenames into “school Latin” for street signs, in the mistaken belief that all foreign tourists visiting Greece also learned Latin at school and pronounced it the same way as Greeks would. If that were the case, then this new system would mean that now both Greeks and tourists would pronounce everything as written, exactly the same way for all regardless of their nationality, which would ease communication. However, an American seeing Eirini would probably pronounce it Eyereyeneye, even if he had learned some Latin at school, especially if he was not aware of the intention behind transcribing place names and peoples’ names in this new way. I would say this method has been a complete failure but it is still used for signs and maps in Greece. This has set a bad trend that has extended beyond street signs - and I think there is no need to introduce it to M2TW.
There are many instances of such experimental modern-Greek to school-Latin transcriptions in the names.txt list which are however, historically incorrect, since at the time we are talking about such spellings would not have been used by anyone. I would, therefore, propose we use the standard Latin spellings as used in the Middle Ages and up to our own time to refer to the various names.
Some names in the 6.3 list I simply could not find on the internet. If one searched under Byzantium, literature, Byzantine Empire and the like in Wikipedia, or checked Edward Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, one would find a fair abundance of properly spelled names in the style of Patrologia Graeca. I would be happy to work together with other interested persons in revising the present list using the standard spelling.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Thanks, I'd welcome your help with the Byzantine names too, though it seems there are a couple of things that need to be discussed first.
I'll send you a pm with the details soon!
I have just found and downloaded your list. Khwarezmian names have improved compared to SS6.3 but I would still prefer if some Kurdish, Seljuk and Ottoman names for Khwarezmians were left out of your list. It seems compound Arabic names (al-Din and the like) have been removed. The ones I found were from Wikipedia but may be modern usage by Arabic-speaking scholars. Feel free to keep them or not. I am working on name lists for my own use, but I will post them here when I am done. I only do so because I was bothered a bit by several inappropriate names, I do not expect reps.
I saw also the Byzantine list in your descr_names, the same as in 6.3 (the one I made suggested corrections on). I would guess someone asked someone else to provide Greek locative bynames with an “of” somewhat like these
Theodorus Bishop of Iconium, Epiphanius of Jerusalem monk, Patriarch Alexius of Constantinople, Demetrius Syncellus Bishop of Cyzicus, Nicetas Chartophylax of Nicaea, Patriarch Michael Cerularius of Constantinople, Samonas Bishop of Gaza, Leo of Ohrid Archbishop of Bulgaria, Nicetas Pectoratus (Stethatos) presbyter and monk of Monastery of Stoudios, Joannes Bishop of Euchaita, Patriarch Joannes Xiphilinus of Constantinople, Joannes Deacon of Constantinople (From Wikipedia Patrologia Graeca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrologia_Graeca ).
but in Greek.
How are these “of”s written in the original? Both Greek and Latin have inflected nouns and adjectives and, therefore, the genitive needs neither an article nor an “of” (which in fact has no equivalent in either language). Below are a few actual examples (original text from Patrologia Graeca):
In GreekIn LatinSpoiler Alert, click show to read:Not a single ”ex/ek” in either language. I.e. no Theodorus ex Iconii but Theodorus Iconii. In fact ex has the meaning of “from” or “out of” (http://dictionary.die.net/ex-) in both languages and it would be like saying the Duke from Edinburgh or the Prince out of Wales.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Also all these names are of patriarchs or bishops (sometimes of deacons or monks) associated with a specific seat (Iconium, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Cyzicus, Gaza, etc). Using this sort of locative byname for Byzantine merchants, spies, or even generals, would make no sense. They are not permanent feudal titles tied to that person, they are relating to their current seats (bishoprics, monasteries, and the like). I have therefore removed all ERE locatives from my version of SS6.3 because even priests wander about freely and giving them a locative byname would certainly not bind them to a specific settlement. However, a number of the surnames indicate one’s place of origin, if you would like to use those, e.g. Choneiates from Choneiae, Neokaesarites from Nea Caesaria, Monasteriotes from Monasterion, etc. - they could go to the bynames list.
The list in the Greek alphabet is not ancient Greek but modern monotonic Greek dating no further back than 1980. There were no lowercase letters in ancient Greek. Byzantines used a polytonic system. Otherwise the Greek spelling (where no grammatical mistakes happen - the genitives being usually murdered) is often correct. Probably not many people use it if I happen to be the first to notice the mistakes.
I was happy to see you have removed Mongol names from the Cuman list. I am also looking for additional names of Cumans and Mongols from the period of 1100-1300. I will hopefully have lists with a few historical names for all three factions from this period in a few weeks.
Sorry for the late reply but I had to shift my focus on the map project in the last few days.
Thanks for your help once again, you seem to be very knowledgeable on the topic and I'd welcome if you could join this project to improve the current name lists even further. Please check the pm I sent you and let me know what you think about it!
Does this work with the map adjustment submod?
I like this mod, but I think the semi-cyrillic for the Russian names is kind of stupid. It looks really weird and makes it confusing to read for someone who is used to reading cyrillic. Full cyrillic names would be highly appreciated (Yay, I used a difficult word!) or at least please change the confusing letters like the Я (ya) or the И (i) back into latin. As of now, I'm constantly reading Yatibor instead of Ratibor and Iovgorodskii instead of Novgorodskii
I just checked the files, quick edit: The names can in principle be given in English. Perhaps either English characters or the semi-Cyrillic should be an option like the full Cyrillic. As for the current version, the semi-Cyrillic could be replaced with full-Cyrillic if anyone would prefer that.
On another front, if there is anyone with a good knowledge of both English and medieval Persian or maybe classical Arabic, it would be really helpful if they could check an enlarged Khwarezmian list for proper spelling and phonetics.
FP, I have done most I could with the name lists. Is it possible to attach the new name lists in an email or how should I send them to you?
Hi Fair Prince,
Below is my progress with the files. With a couple of exceptions for the Cumans, I have added only names from 1070-1550 AD. I have only edited the following factions.
I removed as in all following factions all names you had marked in yellow. I removed some Saxon first names because I could not find them being used in this period. I did not touch other names, unless there was a conflict in the spelling compared to how they were spelled in original sources. When there were conflicts in spelling, I either used only the original spelling found in manuscripts or exceptionally both modern and Middle English spellings (Nottingham and Nottyngham). For names of places, I tried to use the medieval spelling that was closest to the modern spelling. I added some names of princesses and did not remove any non-Saxon names from the female names, although I am not sure some of those were ever used by English princesses. I have noted down the original sources of all the new names I have added and we can check anything you have doubts about.
Your latest list was much improved. Nonetheless, I removed all names I could not find sources for from the period in question. All the current names are from original sources, including monastery records, and a few secondary scholarly sources. Hopefully there should be no spelling mistakes, unless there were any in the original sources. If in doubt please check with me or remove any you may not like. I have used the Wikipedia-style spelling, which is close to the standard Latin transliteration of these names. I have used the Byzantine polytonic notation for the version in Greek. Note: it is Byzantine Greek - not ancient Greek, which is what it currently says in the Read me file.
First names: the majority of people in this period had names like Georgios, Michael, Konstantinos, Nikolaos and a few other. I have used the more common names twice, perhaps with a spelling variation (all historical). I have not included extremely rare names especially where I was not confident about the source.
Surnames: most of these are names of common people from lists in church and public records from 1070-1550 AD, but also include many known historical generals, bishops, historians and some aristocracy from this period.
Bynames: I have replaced these with the royal families. Most common were Palaiologos and Komnenos, which could or should be used as named characters in the campaign script. Palaiologos occurred from the reign of Alexios Komnenos until the last Emperor. Doukas was also common throughout the period but less important. There were no feudal titles in the ERE. If you would rather prefer place of origin, it is indicated usually with the suffices ites, ates or -otes.
Women: By this we mean princesses and in Byzantium there were very few names considered suitable for a princess. This is the all inclusive list. Half of these names actually only occur once. I have included a few latinised variations.
I have added a small number of historical names.
I have added a small number of historical names.
I have removed the names marked in yellow. I have added all the names from my list to the existing list, as they were all from Wikipedia, however I am not as confident with these changes as with the Byzantine ones. I have removed the last few remaining Ottoman (e.g. Mihaloglu) and a couple of Kurdish names (at least I believe they were). I have added phonetic values and accentuation as used in Wikipedia, mainly in the second column. Unfortunately, there are occasional variants of such accentuation available which may reflect the use of the name at different periods or locations. As you seem to have a contact who may be more knowledgable, perhaps he could check them and maybe add accent and phonetic notation to the rest. Apologies but it has not been possible to check all of them.
The Crusader and Italian factions looked very good. Most other factions are beyond me.
I have attached the files as pdf documents and in a zip file. I hope they are ok and in the format you wanted. Let me know if not.
Guys, sorry for the late reply, see my answers to your questions below.
FP, I added the lith names and most famous family names in. Note that sometimes names and family names are the same like Kesgaila and Kesgailos as a family. Kesgailos is plural while Kesgaila is singular, so all family names are written in singular so that it would not look weird attached to singular character name.
Svebntaragis son should be names Vaisvilkas rather than Vasilkas, because source comes from old russian song on Lithuanian attack on Pskov so chance are that Vasilkas is Lithuanian Vaisvilkas turned into more slavic sounding Vasilkas.
one question maybe already answered or posted in the main thread but I m just so stupid to find it...
Is it compatible with SS 6.4?
Nice mod, very helpful, but the italian names aren't very correct, hope you don't get mad at me if add something:
- surnames should always be "da ****", not "di Catania" or "de Massa" but "da Catania" and "da Massa"
- other medieval male names are Paolo, Pietro, Donato, Federico, Corso, Forese, Durante (Dante), Francesco, Domenico, Gabriele, Salvatore, Michele (or Micheletto or Michelotto or Michelozzo), Giovanni, etc...
- other medieval female names are Beatrice, Laura, Gemma, Matilde, Eleonora, Isabella, etc....
- Spino and Cardinale aren't cities; maybe Fiorenza (ancient name of Florence), Perugia, Spoleto ?
- Alexandria and Victoria should be Alessandra and Vittoria;
- other latin names are Iohannes, Alexander, Pius, Benedictus, Bonifacius, etc...
- Gian Mario should Gianmaria or Gian Maria, it's the same;
- Martinella should be Martina;
- the cities names are a bit weird: for example Sestri is a town nearby Genoa, and a Venetian general "da Sestri" doesn't just sound;
- Sorry, I understand that they're meant to be dialectal names but Gugghiermu, Albertu and Robertu aren't neither italian or sicilian names, they just sound ridicolous; real sicilian (norman) names were Roberto, Gualtiero, Ruggero, Guglielmo, Manfredo (or Manfredi), Enrico. D
- Litizzia should be Letizia.
Hope this can be of any help.
Thanks for your post, but the Italian and Sicilian name lists were actually made by Italian and Sicilian people, and I trust their choices.
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