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Thread: weak byzantine troops

  1. #1
    Prince of Judah's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default weak byzantine troops

    It feels like byzantine troops, both infantry and cavalry are inferior to their neighbors. Castosomethingsomething has an attack score of 5 and defense of 18. overall It seems like the roman empire is severely disadvantaged. Plus it is impossible to retrain varangians no matter how big my settlements are. Some of my troops that are supposedly professional troops take 2 -3 turns to train and they still are weaker than other faction's.

  2. #2

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    No. Just no.

  3. #3

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    in before Rage.

    and um, I don't think they are weak. Romans are actually pretty strong until very late in the game when they get outdated a bit eh.
    It takes a tactical geniu-
    CREEEED!

  4. #4

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Right.

  5. #5
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Dομέστικοc
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    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Some troops are strong:
    Scholarii
    Spatharii tou Vasileos
    Pronoiarii
    Scithikon
    Some troops are stronger than some west counterparts of theirs and weakest
    than others.
    Stratiotae are stronger than mounted sergeants but weaker than knights.
    Scutatoi spearmen are stronger than dismounted sergeants also.
    Romans did not have any equal unit to late era knights like the german or Hungarian or French ones.
    Varangians are suposed to be rare and expencive.
    You need fortress,fortress baracks and Hetaireae reqruitment building to have them.

    When a team creates a unit roster has two choices.
    1 Create it as accurate as possible with all advandages and disadvandages it had no matter how pleasure it will give.
    2 Create a funcy roster for extreme pleasure that will help the player conquer the world.
    Some times i wish i would be in the 2nd kind but i am afraid i am a fan of the 1st. I am learning playing that roster. Defeates help me to understand
    (as possible) how those people faught against infarior or superior opponets.

    Edit: When we will create a new version of the curent roster we will offer even weaker units for Palaeologian era.
    Because they were weaker units.

  6. #6
    Prince of Judah's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    No. Just no.
    with all due respect i don't see the need for that response. i find it rude. 5/18 is incredibly weak for a high era unit.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post

    Edit: When we will create a new version of the curent roster we will offer even weaker units for Palaeologian era.
    Because they were weaker units.
    that is depressing lol. Medieval Rome is my favorite faction

  8. #8

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperiumiv View Post
    with all due respect i don't see the need for that response. i find it rude. 5/18 is incredibly weak for a high era unit.
    Its a understandable response when you consider how often this is brought up and by people who frankly understand little to nothing about roman history so considering that it makes alot of sense



  9. #9

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperiumiv View Post
    with all due respect i don't see the need for that response. i find it rude. 5/18 is incredibly weak for a high era unit.
    OK, my apologies. The Castrophilakae are a Superior quality unit, but they only start with light mail armor which is upgradeable two times. They are also a 'guard' unit which means -1 attack and +1 defense, which reflects their training. They are also 'highly_trained' and can make a shield wall. Their morale is +1, ie 14 also, and their heat stat is good.

    {Castrophilakae}Kastrophylakes
    {Castrophilakae_descr_short}Infantry armed with heavy armour, sword and wooden shield.
    {Castrophilakae_descr}(Καστροφύλακες).\n\nQuality: Superior.\nType: Late Professional (increased training time based on unit type and quality, higher proportion of disciplined units).\n\nEvery Doux (provincial ruler) had the responsibility dictated by the military laws of the Empire to recruit a unit of professional soldiers in order to guard the border fortifications and to enforce the law in the province. Their name comes from the greek word κάστρα, a generic name for fortifications. As professional troops they could afford better quality, heavier armour. Usually armed with a sword and a round wooden shield.

  10. #10
    Prince of Judah's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    OK, my apologies. The Castrophilakae are a Superior quality unit, but they only start with light mail armor which is upgradeable two times. They are also a 'guard' unit which means -1 attack and +1 defense, which reflects their training. They are also 'highly_trained' and can make a shield wall. Their morale is +1, ie 14 also, and their heat stat is good.

    {Castrophilakae}Kastrophylakes
    {Castrophilakae_descr_short}Infantry armed with heavy armour, sword and wooden shield.
    {Castrophilakae_descr}(Καστροφύλακες).\n\nQuality: Superior.\nType: Late Professional (increased training time based on unit type and quality, higher proportion of disciplined units).\n\nEvery Doux (provincial ruler) had the responsibility dictated by the military laws of the Empire to recruit a unit of professional soldiers in order to guard the border fortifications and to enforce the law in the province. Their name comes from the greek word κάστρα, a generic name for fortifications. As professional troops they could afford better quality, heavier armour. Usually armed with a sword and a round wooden shield.
    I think i get it. Thanks for your response. I appreciate it . I'm not sure as to why Castrophikaes would have such a low attack score. I think the average attack score in RR/RC is 7 or 6. One problem i've noticed is that using shield walls seems to actually reduce infantry effectiveness against other infantry. What does Guard unit mean? They have +1 def -1 attack while in guard mode? I apologize for my ignorance but this is a pretty complex mod. Also my favorite mod. But I'm not the best TW player in the world.

    EDIT: Also what campaign and battle ai does rc use? Do i have to activate it in some way?

  11. #11

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Their attack value is 4 (arming sword) +2 (Superior quality) -1 (Guard unit) = 5.

    Shield wall seems to boost defense at the cost of attack.

    'Guard' is just an RC category. Other such types are:

    Optional Unit Types
    Bodyguard: -2 attack, +2 defense, disciplined, highly_trained, morale boost: these
    men's task is to keep their general alive, hence their training and tactics favour the
    defensive
    Guard: -1 attack, +1 defense, better-quality units are disciplined: this unit has a
    defensive role
    Impetuous: +1 attack, -1 defense, impetuous
    Reckless: +2 attack, -2 defense, impetuous, morale boost
    Fanatic: +2 attack, -2 defense, impetuous, lock_morale
    Desperate: +2 attack, -2 defense, lock_morale, morale penalty (even if lock_morale,
    morale level still affects AI behaviour)

    Campaign AI default is theSavage AI, battleAI is by Germanicu5.

  12. #12

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperiumiv View Post
    I think the average attack score in RR/RC is 7 or 6.
    Uh, what RR/RC version are you playing? What is your average based on? Perhaps feudal era dismounted knights are your average unit? They are supposed to be an expensive and very rare unit, as is historically accurate. They have 8 starting damage. Most other units have much lower damage and are typically spear units, which have a low melee plus a negative modifier against other infantry units. I'm baffled by your assumed average.

    As for the Byzantines... Scoutati Swordsmen/Castrophilikae are in high numbers once their respective barracks are built although take longer to train. A melee attack of 5 is substantial, especially compared to the majority spear-based composition of many RR/RC armies. Have you actually bothered to play a campaign with these units? They destroy other units. Add in the deadly Mourtatoi who do great ranged damage then also add in their 4-5 melee damage... yeah, your entire army is a walking slashing machine. Sure you'll take some casualties, but its certainly not like amassing one of Italy's urban spear militia armies.

    And as for your Varangian Guard, if you bothered to do a search in the forums you'd see you need a metropolis and the respective mayor's palace building. They're a high value, highly trained mercenary unit. Don't expect to just be amassing them either.

    Oh and the Byzantines have access to a wide array of devastating heavy cavalry types with insanely strong armor for their era.
    Wealth beyond measure, Outlander.

  13. #13

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Do spearmen actually get a penalty against infantry or is that just a myth?

  14. #14

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    When a team creates a unit roster has two choices.
    1 Create it as accurate as possible with all advandages and disadvandages it had no matter how pleasure it will give.
    2 Create a funcy roster for extreme pleasure that will help the player conquer the world.
    Some times i wish i would be in the 2nd kind but i am afraid i am a fan of the 1st. I am learning playing that roster. Defeates help me to understand
    (as possible) how those people faught against infarior or superior opponets.

    Edit: When we will create a new version of the curent roster we will offer even weaker units for Palaeologian era.
    Because they were weaker units.
    If only were all rosters created in this manner.
    Can`t wait for Paleologian era units!



  15. #15

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Quote Originally Posted by k/t View Post
    Do spearmen actually get a penalty against infantry or is that just a myth?
    Its not a myth, but the spearman attack animation set is very powerful, which is why I reduced spearman base defense from 3 to 1.

  16. #16

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    That one where they hit the enemy down and stab them on the ground is -painfully- slow. I hate it when they do it on the walls and let enemies come uncontested...

  17. #17

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    It could be speeded up, will have a look.

  18. #18
    hippacrocafish's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Their only weakness seems to be their lack of any exceptional archers and the obvious late period disadvantages, if anything they are overpowered, they are neigh unstoppable in the early campaign.

    No I'm not just saying that because Venice is my favorite faction.

  19. #19

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    Yes, Byzantines in Early era are very very strong.

  20. #20

    Default Re: weak byzantine troops

    I count Mourtatoi as exceptional given their high attack and availability. In fact, they have the very same attack and arrow type as Peasante archers They even have about the same starting total defence, though their armour+shield is worse than the peasante archers' armour.

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